Heavenly Souse

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Butterbean
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Post by Butterbean » Mon Feb 25, 2013 15:32

ssorllih wrote:Can we then use fresh herbs in fresh sausage that will be cook before consumption? Parsley and onions are popular additions.
I was thinking the same thing. I grow some of my own herbs and dry and grind them. This I would think would be along the same lines. Manufacturers do the same.

Maybe like CW said, the risk is so minute this is one of the risks we have to take as it is unavoidable. This would also explain why you are supposed to keep a log of all the spices you buy and where used when selling to the public.
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Post by nuynai » Mon Feb 25, 2013 21:29

This is for guys of Polish descent. I'm 60 YO and grew up with the family making various kinds of Garalita? It was meat- pig feet, turkey, pig heads, etc- boiled down to the point it formed a gel/jello. All ingredients than sliced up with carrots, onions. peppers, peppercorns, etc. We than put it in a form till it gelled, scrapped off the fat, sliced it served with vinegar and rye bread. What's the difference between the above and souse? Thanks in advance.
PS- they never used a cure, as it never lasted long enough.
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Post by redzed » Tue Feb 26, 2013 01:01

You are looking for the word galareta, which translated literally means jelly or aspic. Jellied meat and vegetable dishes are very popular in Poland to this day. Terms used are galareta z nóżek wieprzowych., (pig's feet in aspic), galareta z kurczaka (chicken in aspic) and galaretka z groszkiem i marchewką (peas and carrots in aspic). Galaretka is a diminutive form of galareta. These dishes are not cased like salceson.

So what you are describing belongs to the same family as the different head cheeses made in different parts of the world. Souse is a head cheese which is prepared with vinegar as an ingredient. Polish style galareta is served with vinegar on the side. I like mine with lemon juice!

Marianski's Home Production.... has a whole section where you can find more info.
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Post by Butterbean » Tue Feb 26, 2013 02:23

Are you referring to something like this?

Image
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Post by ssorllih » Tue Feb 26, 2013 02:23

Butterbean wrote:
ssorllih wrote:Can we then use fresh herbs in fresh sausage that will be cook before consumption? Parsley and onions are popular additions.
I was thinking the same thing. I grow some of my own herbs and dry and grind them. This I would think would be along the same lines. Manufacturers do the same.

Maybe like CW said, the risk is so minute this is one of the risks we have to take as it is unavoidable. This would also explain why you are supposed to keep a log of all the spices you buy and where used when selling to the public.
I suspect that with fresh sausage we keep it so cold until we cook it that it is not a great concern. We get into trouble if we try to ferment a sausage make with non sterile ingredients.
Ross- tightwad home cook
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Post by Chuckwagon » Tue Feb 26, 2013 05:04

Ross asked:
Can we then use fresh herbs in fresh sausage that will be cook[ed] before consumption? Parsley and onions are popular additions.
It depends on exacting circumstances Ross. If you use fresh parsley, onions, green peppers, etc., in a fresh sausage that is cooked immediately, of course you can. However, if it is put into casings, or even stored overnight in an enclosed plastic container or even in a bowl sealed with plastic wrap, then obligate anaerobic bacteria may grow even at refrigerated temperatures. This is the reason the FSIS offers so much caution to housewives around Thanksgiving time. Holiday cooks just love to make dressing (stuffing) then place it inside a turkey, "stuffing" it. With the sheer numbers of bacteria doubling every twenty minutes, it doesn`t take long to become toxic. Overnight, bacterial growth may have become deadly, especially if clostridium botulinum is involved.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
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Post by Baconologist » Tue Feb 26, 2013 13:44

There appears to be some confusion here regarding pasteurization and sterilization.
I think it's in everyone's best interest to understand the critical differences.

Please refer to Dr. O. Peter Snyder's excellent 36 page guide, Home HACCP: Food Safety Hazards and Controls for the Home Food Preparer.

I urge everyone to read the guide!

www.hi-tm.com/homeprep/Home-2006-2col-forpdf.pdf

Dr. Snyder's website has a wealth of important food safety information.

www.hi-tm.com

Best of luck.

Stay safe.
Godspeed!

Bob
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Post by nuynai » Tue Feb 26, 2013 14:17

Thanks Guys and yes BB that's what it looked like.
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Post by el Ducko » Tue Feb 26, 2013 14:28

Chuckwagon wrote:Ross, no, Butterbean, asked:
Can we then use fresh herbs in fresh sausage that will be cook[ed] before consumption? Parsley and onions are popular additions.
It depends on exacting circumstances Ross. If you use fresh parsley, onions, green peppers, etc., in a fresh sausage that is cooked immediately, of course you can. However, if it is put into casings, or even stored overnight in an enclosed plastic container or even in a bowl sealed with plastic wrap, then obligate anaerobic bacteria may grow even at refrigerated temperatures. ...
and then the Duck asked:
If we were to parboil the herbs, onions, etc. (just dunking them briefly in boiling water), might that make them safe? That should take the "bite" out of the onion at the same time. ...plus, it really perks up the color of green or yellow vegetables.
and so the Chuck replied:
?____________________________________________?
:mrgreen:
P.S. Formatting is Fun! Obligate formatting is... uh... anaerobic, too?
So.... whataya think? Is parboiling an answer?
Experience - the ability to instantly recognize a mistake when you make it again.
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Post by Butterbean » Tue Feb 26, 2013 23:44

I think we are splitting some fine hairs here and I really don't like overthinking stuff but this does seem like a chink in our armor even though its a minute risk but it is good food for thought.

I would think for complete safety blanching would be best. Not saying I'm going to do it cause I think the risk is very minute.

Just thinking, it seems like I have seen some chicken spinach sausage recipes that called for blanching the spinach yet some that did not call for it.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:17

El Ducko asked,
So.... whataya think? Is parboiling an answer?
I'm sorry Mr. Duck. Ooops, I thought I had made the point clear but I actually did not. Let me say this... parboiling and blanching won't destroy some of the most resistant bacteria (and there are a ton of them out there). However, there are several less resistant species that are vulnerable to just a short exposure to cooking temperatures. So... blanching and parboiling is better than nothing at all. :roll:

When I was just a kid, we rode through the sagebrush, willows, and lots of bushes where ticks often climbed aboard for the ride. Each night, back at the ranch house, we had to strip down and be "closely examined" for the feared ectoparasitic arachnid of the Ixodida order - the common hard-shelled tick. Lyme disease or "Colorado tick fever" (Coltivirus genera), is nothing to fool with. We also had to have hypodermic injections (shots) with boosters. Before needles were disposable, we had to boil them to make them sterile. Now, it wasn't just a simple matter of bringing them to a rolling boil. They were "hard" boiled for ten or fifteen minutes, handled with forceps and sterile gloves, and then screwed onto the hypo before they went into the arm. Simple boiling will not eradicate some microorganisms, just as simply freezing will not do the job either.

I hate to "nag" and open another dispute with those who doubt my credentials, but the fact remains, the only 100% surefire way to destroy most of the food-borne microorganisms these days, is to completely cook the product. Even then, boiling-cooking does not always destroy the toxins of some spores once they have developed, and the spore toxins of the clostridium botulinum bacterium are some of the worst. Allow me to further illustrate my point.

In Sweden during the 1970's, a single case of food-borne bolulism completely baffled medical authorites for more than a week. A father had been out with his 7-year old son hunting roe deer and since they lacked a freezer, they made meatballs and preserved them in jars. Experienced as they were, they followed all safety rules with sterilization of the jars etc. After a couple of months, the son opened a jar to have a taste and ate ONE meatball. He fell sick with botulism and was admitted to the emergency room at a hospital. With quick diagnosis and treatment, the boy recovered following several weeks in a hospital, as authorities investigated every possible clue for answers. (In Sweden, the law requires an investigation regulated by their bureau for Infectious Disease Control). The contents of all the jars were examined by specialists, though only one jar in particular seemed to be the only one infected! Investigators were completely puzzled! What had caused the infection of merely one jar? Following further investigation, it eventually turned out that when the deer was shot, the bullet had slightly grazed against the trunk of a tree before killing the game. A few spores from the tree had obviously followed the bullet into the wound to eventually end up in the preserved meat. Boiling the jars killed LIVING bacteria, but not the spores that found ideal growth conditions during the subsequent storage.

Do you know how the rod-shaped bacterium was first isolated? It has only been a little over a hundred years ago. Yup, some crazy home-sausage makin`, cow biscuit kickin`, dude with a bad comb-over just like mine... made a "bad" ham. (Meaning no curing agent was used). That was in 1896. Several people consumed the bad ham and it was later discovered that due to the enzyme superoxide dismutase, the bacterium actually tolerated very small traces of oxygen. All fell victim of the bad ham as scientists finally identified and named clostridium botulinum.

Now, get this! Botulinum spores are extremely persistent and will survive heating up to 250°F. (121°C), freezing, smoking, and drying. Insidiously, they lie in wait for the right conditions to occur and give no foul smell or taste, making it even more treacherous. In non-cooked fermented sausages, the microorganism must be destroyed using a combination of salt, a drop beyond 5.0 pH, and a minimum drop in Aw water activity to 0.97 or less. So, the answer is... placing fresh vegetables or un-sterilized (garden fresh) spices into sausage is not recommended, as botulinum spores are not uncommon on leafy herbs, peppers, beans, chilies, and corn. Cut off from oxygen by being stuffed into casings and placed in a smoker, the smoking temperatures are ideal for bacteria growth. The risk using fresh garlic is less, but cases of botulism poisoning have been reported after people have eaten home-canned garlic cloves in oil - the ideal environment for anaerobic bacterial growth!

Clostridium Botulinum has been identified as a common obligate anaerobic (cannot grow in the presence of oxygen) bacterium microorganism found in soil and sea sediments. Although it can only reproduce in an oxygen-free environment, when it does reproduce, it produces the deadliest poison known to man - botulinum toxin. One millionth of a gram ingested means certain death - about 500,000 times more toxic than cyanide. Onset of symptoms can occur quickly and include nausea, stomach pain, double vision, and spreading paralysis, ultimately reaching the heart or respiratory organs. If treatment is given and the dose is low, half of those affected may survive, but recovery may take months or years. Although fatalities occur yearly, especially in countries where home canning is popular, the risk of acquiring botulism is very, very low. However, the lethal consequences of poisoning may make you wish to reconsider the proper addition of sodium nitrate/nitrite in your products to almost eliminate the risk. Worldwide, there are about 1000 cases of botulism each year.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
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Post by Baconologist » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:12

I don't pretend to be a scientist, but from all the food safety information that I've studied, here are a few important points.

Any ingredient going into the sausage that isn't sterilized (using the formal definition of sterilized) should be assumed to potentially carry pathogenic spores. Not just fresh vegetables or herbs or whatever.

Cooking, even to pasteurization temperature/time (using the formal definition of pasteurization), either before or after stuffing the sausage, does not render the potentially dangerous spores inactive.

So, even if the ingredients or finished sausage are cooked to pasteurization temperatures, there's still the risk of spores becoming active when conditions are favorable.

That's why we take special precautions to reduce the risk by keeping spores in check, refrigerating at proper temperature, etc.

Again, Dr. Snyder's guide is a great resource.
Godspeed!

Bob
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Post by Chuckwagon » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:48

Any ingredient going into the sausage that isn't sterilized (using the formal definition of sterilized) should be assumed to potentially carry pathogenic spores. Not just fresh vegetables or herbs or whatever.

Cooking, even to pasteurization temperature/time (using the formal definition of pasteurization), either before or after stuffing the sausage, does not render the potentially dangerous spores inactive.

So, even if the ingredients or finished sausage are cooked to pasteurization temperatures, there's still the risk of spores becoming active when conditions are favorable.

That's why we take special precautions to reduce the risk by keeping spores in check, refrigerating at proper temperature, etc.
Gee Bob, Isn't that what I just said?
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Post by Baconologist » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:17

Chuckwagon wrote:Only "sterile" spices for this old man now.
Where do you purchase your sterile spices?

Thanks!
Godspeed!

Bob
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Post by Butterbean » Wed Feb 27, 2013 14:53

I believe I'll just go back to eating fresh manatee cause there has never been a documented case of anyone getting sick from eating a free range sea cow.
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