coppa AGAIN

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andrejwout
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coppa AGAIN

Post by andrejwout » Tue Nov 22, 2011 13:58

Hi everyone. Im on second batch of coppa now and its been very successful. However, I have one questions for the guru's. On one of my coppas i had a slight split in along the meat, due to poor butchery. I didnt wrry too much about, except it would make slicing harder later on. When i cured the coppa and took the skin/bung off i found quite a bit of mould on the coppa, especially in the areas in the slit/crack/.....this was blueish/white mould, a bit like that on cheese. There was a lot the further you looked into the slit and i decided to through the meat away. I hadd 2nd coppa which was with a slit, just a more complete and rounded piece of meat. That had no such mould, from same conditions and chamber etc. Im guessing the slit in the meat created aan air space and ideal mould conditions...is that the case? Is that mould dangerous or just unplesant?

Im interested in that.

By the way. I took advice on lowering the salt from 3g to 20g and this has worked very very well. Still same good flavour but the coppa has not become over salty with time, like it did before.

Thanks to all

Andrej
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Post by ssorllih » Tue Nov 22, 2011 15:19

I know almost nothing about coppa but of mold I would simply cut it away along with the margins. and save the rest.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Wed Nov 23, 2011 07:58

Andre J, Where have you been? Doggone it... we've missed you! Now, DON'T MAKE ME USE UPPERCASE! Say hello a little more often. :lol:
You wrote:
Im guessing the slit in the meat created aan air space and ideal mould conditions...is that the case? Is that mould dangerous or just unplesant?
It sounds to me like that is exactly what happened. And yes, it could be dangerous.
Molds are microscopic fungi that grow in the form of multicellular filaments called hyphae. Ubiquitous in nature, molds are aerobic and grow on the surface of sausages. Wild growing "white" molds have been used for centuries on sausage surfaces to help prevent oxygen from penetrating the sausage and to help regulate or temper the drying cycle. Mold also oxidizes lactic acid - increasing pH, and it consumes oxygen to produce catalase, thereby reducing lipid oxidation and rancidity of fats. Penicillium nagliovense in particular, promotes lipolytic (breaking down of fats) and proteolytic (breaking down of proteins) development, greatly improving the flavor of fermented, air-dried sausages. In order to grow, molds need 75% humidity or more and higher temperatures facilitate their development. The sausage maker`s favorites include penicillium nagliovense and Fleming`s penicillium chrysangenum, from which the miraculous antibiotic penicillin was developed.

However, some molds also produce spores and subsequently, mycotoxins. When mold spores are present in large quantities, their mycotoxins can certainly present a health hazard to humans and animals, potentially causing allergic reactions and respiratory problems. Exposure to (or consumption of) high levels of mycotoxins can lead to neurological problems and in some cases... death! Molds of color, especially green, should be wiped away with vinegar immediately. Although it is generally accepted that wild white mold is safe, it yet remains a wild mold and therefore its safety remains a gamble. For this reason, it is suggested that starter cultures, purchased from a reputable company, be used in sausage making to control microorganisms. I prefer and recommend the very fine Chr. Hansen Bactoferm™ products made in Denmark and distributed in Germany. To start a mold culture on sausage, most sausage makers dip them into a solution just before they go into the fermentation room or chamber having raised temperature and higher humidity - ideal growing conditions for fungi. I like to spray them using an atomizer. And yes, you really should put a little ventilation into your curing chamber. A couple of well placed 30-30 rounds should do the trick!

There will always be skeptical ol` timers and hardy, dogmatic ol` folks who may say, "We've never used that `newfangled bio-culture stuff` to make salami - our good ol` mold has been successful for years, and we haven't killed anybody yet, so what's the big deal"? Well, I have but one question... and I`ve wondered about it for some time. Just how many folks over the years have died of "natural causes"?

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
andrejwout
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Post by andrejwout » Fri Nov 25, 2011 00:34

Sorry for late reply Chuck et al. I didnt get an email telling me of responses.

Chuck, I instinctively agree with you. I know the ol folks say...blah blah and often they may be correct...but. The mold looked benign to me, but i just cant take that risk on something that has been curing for weeks on end. My father also agreed. He also isnt scared of moulds, but felt it looked a bit worrying, especially as it had attacked the air cavety areas so obviously. Botulism doesnt present itself but thrives on micro spaces /pockets and i just dont want to enter that arena of things.(though it isnt botulism, the notion is still the same) There may be a very normal and safe explanation of this but im not willing to risk it. Since that meat i have decided to butcher my own meat because in the uk the butchers are so lazy and useless these days that i cant get a decent rounded and even piece of meat without chainsaw massacre attacks on it. This crevasse thing worried me before, mostly for slicing, but now im worried on two major levels. This wont happen again on my watch!! Im starting a small business doing this and feel that killing my customers isnt very good policy! My other coppa was great, so at least the process is generally working.

I built a second, much bigger chamber. I have excellent temp control and am just constructing excellent humid controls. Ive bought a digi control x2...one for humid, other for de-humid, for real control over what occurs in the chamber. I wanted an all in one hygrostat but found the ones in my budget to be useless. Ive opted for this new idea, at a good price, which i think will work.

Thanks again for your superb input..


Cheers

Andrej
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Post by andrejwout » Fri Nov 25, 2011 00:52

again, sorry for absence....ive been so busy trying to start this small biz, that im dying at the moment. When i get home im fcked....and go to sleep. The last month or two ive been like a zombie!! I will endevour to be more active and sociable!! I gave samples to the general public of a pastrami, based on 'stanley' salting, but with my spicing etc. I dont smoke it, cos i cant at this time, but it proved to be very very popular with people. i was very happy. Coppa is my second product but behind schedule. However, results have been great, despite that mould issue with one of them. Ive altered the spicing to my taste ..just a bit.........and its fantastic. The marianski's are excellent.

Ill give you a funny tale. I didnt use marianksi for my first number of pastrami's but used an american recipe initally. I doctored it because i didnt like all the sugar and felt it needed more salt. Anyway i formulated my own excellent hybrid pastrami , to great success. After a number of weeks i worried about shelf life etc and looked at the marianski measures of nitrite, salt etc....and decided that i needed more nitrite in mine. Well, im polish and have polish genetics/tastes, though born in UK. With my recipe i had found what i, as a pole, felt was the right salt/sugar level.then i had to calculate what i had done compared to Stanely et al. I found that my ratios were the same as his by a couple of grams of salt etc......in other words we both agreed on exactly the same taste.Me a pole with no curing knowledge, him a pole with that knowledge. When i tried his cure with the higher nitrite it had an identical taste to my previous one......exactly how i had decided i wanted it. They say we dont really have tastes in our genes/blood and we are a product of where we are born......but that just isnt true because we ended up in exactly the same place with our flavouring!! I was amazed, because these things differ so much, yet we were identical on our measures and views,,,,only proportions/rations of the nitrite were different!

There ya go, ive bored you enough..

cheers

Andrej
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Post by Chuckwagon » Fri Nov 25, 2011 03:09

Andre J., you tale is certainly NOT boring! That's what we're all about... sharing experiences while making sausage. I'm sure Stan Marianski will be amused when he reads about your... ahem... ahem... "excellent" tastes! :lol:
We happy things are working for you Andre. Keep up the good work.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by andrejwout » Fri Nov 25, 2011 18:45

Chuck.

How long do you think pastrami will keep when vacuum packed and by same token, coppa? I thought about a month, what about you? Also, is there any way to keep pastrami moist? I find that my pastrami, once in a box, or out of the vacuum, goes dry very very quickly. The coppa isnt so bad and take s while longer to go dry..
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Post by Chuckwagon » Sat Nov 26, 2011 07:51

Andre J, I believe a month should be fine IF it is in a vacuum sealed package and If it is kept below 38°F. (3°C.). Unfortunately, once the seal is broken, it does start to dry quickly. I`ve know people who have even tried to wrap the stuff in a moist towel, but it usually just winds up with plenty of mold on it. Perhaps the best way to "store" pastrami after opening the vacuum package, is to place it behind your tonsils with a fork! :roll: Coppa dries more slowly because it is a dry-cured product. You may just have to use smaller volumes in vacuum packaged pastrami.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
andrejwout
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Post by andrejwout » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:59

Great, thats what i thought too. Its a pretty good shelf life for the coppa especially, though the pastrami is good when sealed too. Lucky i have a vacuum packer.

Thanks for the advice ...

cheers
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Post by Devo » Sun Nov 27, 2011 21:28

andrejwout

I been reading your post and was wondering where are you storing your pastrami after you open it from the vac. pack? If it's inside a fridge that has a auto defrost that will suck the remaining moisture out of your pastrami in no time at all. I have had some summer sausage I found at the back of my fridge after 4 weeks and boy let me tell ya it come out hard as a rock. The same reasoning is used when you build a drying chamber, you don't want a fridge with the auto defrost hooked up.
Just saying this might be your problem.

Also you can wrap your pastrami in cling wrap than wrap it in tin foil if you dont want to vac. pack again.
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Post by andrejwout » Wed Nov 30, 2011 14:11

Yes Devo, that might well be the issue. All these modern fridges suck moisture like hell...so thats a good point. I try to keep it in tuppa wear when for family consumption or wrapped in the vacu pack.......ill keep tring new things.

URGENT- Chuck..or anyone. Ive cured coppa a number of times now and before spicing it, ie after its salt cured it always neeeds washing, as its a bit slimey.

Today i took my pork out of the fridge, adfter guring 24 days etc and it had a slight white mould/fur on the top. At first i thought it was a write-off but after washing it its perfect. Absolutely no smell or strange colour. We have had unusually high humidity here the last month and i think thats whats done that. Only the top side was affected, bottom was normal. The slight furring/white slime/mould scared the living hell out of me but now i think its fine.......any thoughts on this please!!??
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