Ruhlman - Polcyn Book

crustyo44
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Post by crustyo44 » Thu May 23, 2013 20:59

Red and Mark,
If you have read my post on the forum about commercial Biltong Spice manufactured by a well known South African Multi-National you will see that I have exactly the same worries about both cures. The biltong spice has neither and this certainly has me worried.
The manufacturers reply is also in my post and they explain that cures are not a requirement in whole muscle meat.
Go figure. As a beginner I certainly don't know the answer.
Another query as well.
All curing in the European Union is done with Peklosol which only contains Cure #1.
Where do we stand with salami curing for several months??????????????
Headaches!!!!!!!
Cheers,
Jan.
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Post by ssorllih » Thu May 23, 2013 22:46

Jan , this is a good question for the home office in Poland.
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Post by markjass » Fri May 24, 2013 00:23

In science (driven by politics and money) and almost all trades and professions there are experts (who define who they are and what gives them legitimacy?) who have the latest and most up to date information. Having that does not mean that all the 'experts' agree. When experts disagree or are not sure of what standards, methodologies and evidence based practice are or should be it puts those of the peripheries in a difficult situation.

When there is a differing view between `experts` we (hobbyist) need to be able to locate all the relevant information before we can start to make an informed decision. That is all well, but it requires that we have an understanding of the information. We also need to understand the language (jargon, statistics and hope that it is written in your primary tongue), what the implications or risks are of following or not following guidelines before we can make an informed decision. That is why government and industry based standards are of upmost importance.

Unfortunately standards sometimes vary between countries. Another concern of mine is who sets standards. Should it be the producers or the consumers? If the consumers do not have . . . can you see where I am going?
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Post by markjass » Sun May 26, 2013 14:38

After a good deal of searching I have found (It was easy to find the draft but not the the final document) the document that provides the NZ standards. It is a big document and I am going to wade through it. NZ standards are mostly based on Australiaan standards.

The document is called

Processed meats - Code of practice
Provides guidance on good manufacturing practice, process control, and the application of HACCP principles for processed meats.

It is for industry and must contain information about whether to use cure and what type of cure on solid muscle meat. The link is:

http://www.foodsafety.govt.nz/elibrary/ ... de-part-4/
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Post by markjass » Thu May 30, 2013 00:34

Interesting document. Some of the practices I will adopt when making sausages. No mention of using cure #1 or #2 when dry curing whole muscles (there is when making sausages). Just that the muscle has to be totally covered by salt. The document does referance well and referances to US standards. It also indicates that NZ standards are the same as Australian standards.
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Post by ssorllih » Thu May 30, 2013 02:17

When you are evaluating a document consider your education and that of the writer(s) and the political agenda involved.
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Post by sawhorseray » Thu May 30, 2013 08:00

I swapped my Rytec Kutas bible two years ago for a month with the Ruhlman book, my local pharmacist was just getting into sausage making. I found his recipes to be requiring about twice the salt as the Rytec recipes, and my pharmacist complained that his sausage has been too salty. Ruhlman is buddys with Anthony Bourdain, and Tony is my hero, so I just don't pay attention to his recipes and enjoy him when he's on TV. RAY
“Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.”
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Post by markjass » Thu May 30, 2013 10:27

There are things that are a must because of safety and if you want to follow tradition. There are other things that are done because of taste. Over the years I and many people have cut back on salt (sodium chloride) consumption. I use 16 grams per kg of salt when I make fresh sausages. I have asked my friends about the flavour of my fresh sausages and they say they are good. Interestingly enough a large NZ manufacturer of premium sausages, that I use to buy contain up to 23 grams of salt per kg of meat.

For Christmas I was given a book call "bangers to bacon". It was written by a kiwi chef who trained as a charcuterier. Now I know NZ is a small country; I emailed him with an enquiry (via his restaurant). He then emailed me back the same day and offered to phone me at home if his answer did not help me out. His answer was helpful and I did not need to speak with him. Anyway he uses 15 grams of salt per kg of meat.

Authors and cooks talk of using sea salt, kosher salt and avoiding using iodised salt in any format. This advice is unhelpful and could be detrimental to the health of Kiwis (people not the bird). The soil in NZ lacks a number of elements and minerals including selenium and iodine. So if you became a fundamentalist anti iodised salt fanatic in NZ you may end up with a goitre and other health issues.
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Post by sawhorseray » Thu May 30, 2013 17:10

Most of the recipes for fresh sausage in the Rytec Kutas book call for 2 tablespoons of non-iodized salt per five pounds of meat. I no longer have the Ruhlman book to refer to but if memory serves me well I recall most of his fresh sausage recipes requiring twice that amount. Just a thought, that's a lot of difference. RAY
“Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.”
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Post by redzed » Thu May 30, 2013 17:34

It's best to ignore the amount of salt in any recipe that uses volume. Add anywhere between 1.5 to 2% salt and you will be spot on.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Thu May 30, 2013 17:41

It's best to ignore the amount of salt in any recipe that uses volume. Add anywhere between 1.5 to 2% salt and you will be spot on.
Absatively! :lol:
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by ssorllih » Thu May 30, 2013 18:12

Mark use the iodized salt for your table salt and meal cooking but avoid it in the sausage and meat curing to avoid the slight metallic taste.
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Post by markjass » Thu May 30, 2013 23:33

ssorllih wrote:
Yes, that is what I do

Thanks
Mark
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Post by sawhorseray » Fri May 31, 2013 16:35

Chuckwagon wrote:
It's best to ignore the amount of salt in any recipe that uses volume. Add anywhere between 1.5 to 2% salt and you will be spot on.
Absatively! :lol:
"Ignore" Rytec? Really? I think not! RAY
“Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.”
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Post by ssorllih » Fri May 31, 2013 16:44

sawhorseray wrote:
Chuckwagon wrote:
It's best to ignore the amount of salt in any recipe that uses volume. Add anywhere between 1.5 to 2% salt and you will be spot on.
Absatively! :lol:
"Ignore" Rytec? Really? I think not! RAY
Rytec tended to be heavy handed with the salt. The rest of his work was excellent.
Ross- tightwad home cook
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