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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 13:57
by harleykids
The only reason would be if you didn't want mold on your salumi then you could use the Umai bags.

Chris says that he will sometimes stuff an Umai casing when making a batch that uses natural casings. He does that because he says that the Umai will always finish BEFORE the natural cased products, and he uses it for a taste tester.

So he is saying the Umai dry much faster than the natural cased products.

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 14:34
by Bob K
harleykids wrote:And can you run the umai bags in a normal 13C @ 82% RH curing chamber? Or o they have to be in the fridge at 33-35F and normal frost free fridge low humidity 20-30% RH?
Part of Your original question was for chamber drying. which is the same or longer with the mold problems.

Frost free refrigerator drying is much faster as Chris stated

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 15:06
by harleykids
Yes, my reply was in answer to Lou's post above, not my original question. Thanks Bob!

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 17:24
by redzed
I've posted these pics before, but this is what will happen if you use Umai in your curing chamber (12C, 80% RH). Mould grows on the inside of the casing, it does not dry and spoilage bacteria take over.



Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 17:58
Wow. I guess that's why you can't run higher humidities with Umai. The reason I thought mine was taking forever maybe was because the batch I made that I tossed didn't have enough salt and never firmed up. I haven't done it since with the proper salt to know any better

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 18:58
by redzed
While the Umai method does not produce a salami with the complex flavour and the funky mushroomy aroma, you can nevertheless make a very decent product. Anyone who does not have the means to construct a chamber, or makes something only occasionally, it's a very good alternative. I would recommend it over trying to dry salami in attics, garages, bathrooms, and other places where you don't have a proper temp and humidity environment. Below are pics of some of my umai products that I made when making my "regular" dried sausages. The salami is quite good.



Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 14:57
by harleykids

Seems to me that if someone wanted a 100% mold free Salumi, then the Umai in the refrigerator would be just the ticket. Maybe not as complex a taste, but no mold flavor either.

Unfortunately the fridge takes away the fun of drying in a chamber, watching the mold grow, etc!

How do the Umai whole muscle cuts like lonzino, bresoala, and coppa come out?
As good as the chamber, or do they suffer from lack of taste complexity as well?

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 19:51
by crustyo44
Jason, I have never made salami yet in UMAI/ Tub-Ex/Banquet bags yet but made heaps of Coppa, Bresaola and an off-shoot Tiroler Speck.
All of the above came out very good with my preferred spice mixes. The Tiroler Speck trial was smoked in the bag as well.
We are lucky to have here a switched-on importer distributor of the Tub-Ex bags and they have developed a smoker bag/drying bag for quite a long time now.
The smoke flavour was good but obviously not quite the same as the items I smoke in my proper smokehouses but for hobbyists with limited time this method works great.
All you UMAi users should ask on the UMAi Forum why they refuse to import these smoker bags, if enough people ask, they might smarten themselves up.
But I bet that they will delete your post as they did mine, Proof? ask Phil Clark.
Cheers Mate,

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 21:16
by Shuswap
Yup, Jan is right Umai does not respond to requests about the Tublin bag that allows smoking.
Maybe their licence does not include the product which could mean it is available to another licencee :?:

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 16:18
by harleykids
Chris, those look great!

Question here, just thinking out loud, so I may be way off.

Say my goal was to make salumi that had no mold flavor, and no mold growth on the casing. I wanted my salumi to look like the one in your pic above, clear, pristine, with great color showing thru. No mold.

Would the Umai bags be my best shot? I am assuming you still use dextrose and a starter culture, and ferment, as normal? Just no natural casing, no M600, and no drying chamber needed (fridge instead)

Or can you skip the fermentation process? I am assuming no, since you still need a safe PH drop below 5.2 for safety, even if you aren't going for a "tang" taste with the starter culture.

And in regards to flavor, wouldnt the flavor be more "pure meats and spices", due to the lack of the external/internal flavoring of the mold?

I would think that if you wanted the quality of the meat and spices to come thru as much as possible, you would want the least amount of adulterant flavors. By this, I mean in the Umai bag you have meat, cure/salt, spices. That's it.

In a regular cased salumi you have the above, plus the starter culture, the casing itself, and the M600. All contribute to the flavor, giving it the "old world" flavor profile of a traditional salumi.

Just curious.

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 16:58
by Bob K
Jason I have a stupid question ( and I am not trying to be a wise ass) :grin:

Why don't you (and family) object to the mold covered coppas?

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 17:06
by Shuswap
Jason, I have used umai bags for salami. There is no mold. However, I'm not satisfied with the sour flavor and believe the fermentation period in their recipe of 72 hours is too long. Now that I have my pH meter I can check that out although, like Crusty I am going to a fermentation chamber for salami. Some people remove the mold before eating but the mold has a function in the fermentation process.

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 17:08
by harleykids
The mold on the coppa doesnt seem to have the strong flavor that the mold on the salumi has. Same mold, I know....

Maybe it's the beef bung that's thicker, or something. Or that the slice is so big, and so thin of an edge, that the mold to meat ratio is way different.

My salumi is good, I know this, but I don't like the mold flavor profile. It seems like the mold is always there, as an after taste, and is overpowering the whole taste IMHO.

And I know my salumi is being made correctly, as it looks good and has good color, texture, etc. So maybe I am just sensitive to that moldy taste?

My family hasn't mentioned the moldy taste being overpowering, but it sure is for me!

Even when I made your pepperoni, the pepperoni was fantastic, but that moldy taste just kills me...I could even taste the mold after cooking the pepperoni on my homeade pizza!

And my bresoala and coppa don't have that overpowering moldy taste.....just my salumi!

The only think I can think is that maybe I have a heavy hand when I spray my salumi, after fermentation. I really douse them down with the spray bottle filled with M600.

Mayby I should not spray them at all, and just let them pickup whatever surrounding M600 mold they will....maybe the mold coat will be less?

If you look at my pics on my other posts, you will see that I get 100% thick white mold coverage! So maybe I am doing the good mold thing "too well" !?

Any ideas from you guys would be great! I am almost ready to turn my chamber into a whole muscle meat chamber, and try all my salumi from now on in the Umai bags!

I hate to do that, as I have about 50 tied and cut beef middles still in the fridge that are only a month old!

But the mold flavor is just driving me crazy...its just too overpowering on taste for me.

Maybe I can send you a one of my pieces of salumi for you to try?

Then you can tell me if it's just my sensitive taste, or what?

I am willing to try anything at this point. My Salumi are all so pretty, but the mold taste is simply bothering me!



Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 17:18
by harleykids

I know the mold contributes to the flavor, but that mold taste is simply off-putting for me. I would rather taste the salumi, not the mold. I know its close to blasphemy, but I prefer the taste of the more commercial products, with no pronounced mold flavor. They may use mold at some point in their process, but it is not overwhelming like my mold flavor is.

Hence my questions on the Umai bags, where I could let the meat and spices taste shine, without those flavors trying to compete with the flavor of the M600!

And I remove all my casings before eating, and before vacpaking, and the mold flavor to me is still present, even after a month in vacpak (no casing) resting in the fridge!

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 19:02
by Bob K
I really do not think its the mold, as you do not object to the taste of the whole muscle cuts. It could be more the complex flavor of the culture that you use, don't forget it also contains flavor forming yeast and bacteria.....
Before you give up I would try a fast fermented salami with with F-LC and dry it in your chamber, ferment to a 4.6- 4.7 ph as that will almost halt the flavor forming bacteria and give you more the clean less complex sour taste of an American salami.