Salt and fat question

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YooperDog
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Salt and fat question

Post by YooperDog » Mon Jun 25, 2012 00:23

I am planning on making some vienna, paraowka and breakfast sausages this week and I have some older recipes that request salt peter, can I use Morton Tender Quick in its place and in place of cure #1?

My other question: Is there any way to measure or quantify the fat/meat ratio?

I think my products are hanging at the lean end, around 20%. But this is just a guess/estimate by the way they cook up. Not dry, but definitely not fatty, nothing really left in the pan.

Thanks
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Post by uwanna61 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 01:57

Yooperdog
This question comes up from time to time. Chuckwagon created a write up a while back to explain the Morton tender quick question, take a look.
http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.ph ... nder+quick
As for the fat to meat ratio, generally a sausage maker will mix on average 25 - 30% fat to a lean meat mix. This will give you a flavor full sausage with good texture. A scale can help with the mix ratio.
Check out the Wedliny Domowe recipe page: http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-recipes
Here you can start with a small batch to get acclimated.

Wally
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Post by Chuckwagon » Mon Jun 25, 2012 07:59

Hi YooperDoggie,

Our buddy Uwanna is an old experienced hand at this stuff and his answer nails your question right on the head. Our government eliminated the use of saltpeter in the mid-1970`s because when it is cooked at high temperatures, it is suspected of being carcinogenic, producing cancer-causing nitrosamines.

Saltpeter (potassium nitrate (KNO3), is the third ingredient in gunpowder, along with sulfur and charcoal. It can actually cause relaxation of involuntary muscle fiber (the reason it's used to treat asthma) and it's occasionally prescribed to lower body temperature in cases of fever. For this reason, it has historically been reputed to quell the male libido, although this is not even remotely feasible. (No substitute for the cold shower eh?) Potassium nitrate can cause gastroenteritis, high blood pressure, anemia, kidney disease, and general weakness, not to mention a disturbingly depressive effect on the heart. A fatal dose of potassium nitrate is merely 30 grams. Sodium nitrite will cancel your clock at only about 22 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. You can plainly see why these cures MUST be handled correctly. However, modern science has not come up with a better substitute. As long as we use it wisely, it will continue to protect us without evidence of harmful cumulative effects.

As far as measuring the correct amount of Cure #1 (sodium nitrite) and Cure #2 (sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite) in comminuted sausage, our pal Stan Marianski (Seminole) has put together a time-saving and accurate calculator. It is located at this link: http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-re ... calculator

You also asked about a practical method of determining fat ratio in meat. The only thing most home hobbyists can do is separate the fat from the meat and weigh each to determine the percentage (ratio). Government inspectors use an electronic instrument with a probe that registers an accurate measurement, but it is very expensive and financially out of reach for most of us saddle bums.

Great questions YooperDoggie! Be sure to let us know how your project turns out. How about a photo or two?

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
Last edited by Chuckwagon on Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:19, edited 1 time in total.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
YooperDog
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Post by YooperDog » Mon Jun 25, 2012 15:33

uwanna61 wrote:Yooperdog
This question comes up from time to time. Chuckwagon created a write up a while back to explain the Morton tender quick question, take a look.
http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.ph ... nder+quick
As for the fat to meat ratio, generally a sausage maker will mix on average 25 - 30% fat to a lean meat mix. This will give you a flavor full sausage with good texture. A scale can help with the mix ratio.
Check out the Wedliny Domowe recipe page: http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-recipes
Here you can start with a small batch to get acclimated.

Wally
Thanks for the info. It looks like I am going to need to purchase a digital scale that reads also in metric. To much math trying to convert back and forth allowing for mistakes. I t looks like MTC is not the way to go and I will be ordering some Cure 1 and Cure 2 to place in my supplies. It looks like I will need to stock some fat back and salt pork in the freezer to bring me up to the proper ratio.

YooperDog
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Post by YooperDog » Mon Jun 25, 2012 15:49

Chuckwagon wrote:Hi YooperDoggie,

Our buddy Uwanna is an old experienced hand at this stuff and his answer nails your question right on the head. Our government eliminated the use of saltpeter in the mid-1970`s because when it is cooked at high temperatures, it is suspected of being carcinogenic, producing cancer-causing nitrosamines.

Saltpeter (potassium nitrate (KNO3), is the third ingredient in gunpowder, along with sulfur and charcoal. It can actually cause relaxation of involuntary muscle fiber (the reason it's used to treat asthma) and it's occasionally prescribed to lower body temperature in cases of fever. For this reason, it has historically been reputed to quell the male libido, although this is not even remotely feasible. (No substitute for the cold shower eh?) Potassium nitrate can cause gastroenteritis, high blood pressure, anemia, kidney disease, and general weakness, not to mention a disturbingly depressive effect on the heart. A fatal dose of potassium nitrate is merely 30 grams. Sodium nitrite will cancel your clock at only about 22 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. You can plainly see why these cures MUST be handled correctly. However, modern science has not come up with a better substitute. As long as we use it wisely, it will continue to protect us without evidence of harmful cumulative effects.

As far as measuring the correct amount of Cure #1 (sodium nitrite) and Cure #2 (sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite) in comminuted sausage, our pal Stan Marianski (Seminole) has put together a time-saving and accurate calculator. It is located at this link: http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-re ... calculator

You also asked about a practical method of determining fat ratio in meat. The only thing most home hobbyists can do is weigh it. Government inspectors use an electronic instrument with a probe that registers an accurate measurement, but it is very expensive and financially out of reach for most of us saddle bums.

Great questions YooperDoggie! Be sure to let us know how your project turns out. How about a photo or two?

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
Thanks for the follow-up. It looks like MTC is going to go the way of salt peter in my seasoning cabinet. As I wrote Uwanna61 I will need to purchase some Cure 1 and Cure 2 along with a digital scale that shows metric conversions. Way to many opportunities for math errors doing all the conversions. I will post some pics of all w/i the week.

Living in a rural area it is challenging to get products and meats. I was finally able to talk with two butchers to get me pork bellies and sell and order me casings. Craziness. When I lived in the big city I was able to go to local butchers and they had no issue of selling me anything they had on had or could order from there suppliers.

I have a list from Chief of House along with some new styles I want to try so I have 2-3 days worth of sausage making ahead of me. As soon as the Cures and pork bellies arrive the process will start. Pics will follow.

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Post by Chuckwagon » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:21

Hey Yooper,
You don't have to spend a fortune on scales. Take a look at this topic from the "hardware" forum: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=5498
I picked up a beauty from American Weigh Scales for only about 26 bucks. (There's a link to it on that post.)
When it comes to weighing spices and cures, it's pretty hard to beat. I used to use a great big old antique balance scale with added weights. The new electronic lightweights are the only way to go!

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by YooperDog » Tue Jun 26, 2012 18:14

CW

Thanks. Looks like a good site. Yes I need to upgrade my scales and recipes from the old country. My relatives never really measured much of anything so when I finally would get the recipe out of them I would need to convert handful of this and three fingers of that to a big bowl of trimmings to measurable quantities that would need to be adjusted to taste as the product finished. I never used cures, only made fresh and I don't want to get any one sick, that would end this hobby pronto. I have a 2 cases of pork bellies coming in Thursday and I am thinking he will also sell me some cure 1 as he is the only commercial smoke house w/i 100+ miles that I know about. Your Banger recipe is on the agenda to try out. My wife and mom love bangers, so I am going to deviate from my standard recipe to try out yours. Sounds similar to what I have had in the UK. My Vienna recipe will be my first shot at adding a cure and an emulsified sausage. Mine called for salt peter so I will use the Cure #1 using the conversion site you sent me. I contacted Morton Salt Co. about there MTQ vs salt peter and was told that they don't know what salt peter is. (?) But I was told I could use MTQ and their sugar cures interchangeably. Not much help there. As long as I got the smoke house running I am thinking about making some bacon from one of the bellies. Any recommendations on a brine/recipe? After reading your MTQ article I am planning on staying away from Morton cure products. I know pork fat and salt pork are different animals, which would be a better option for adding fat to a recipe. I can find salt pork easily, but back/pork fat is a tough find. Butcher wasn't so excited about giving that up. Might have to make a pilgrimage to the big city and stock up.

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Post by Chuckwagon » Wed Jun 27, 2012 09:40

Hi YooperDoggy,

You can get Cure #1 and 2 (called "Instacure") delivered right to your door fairly economically. Check it out at this link: http://www.sausagemaker.com/meatcuring.aspx

Would you believe our "Member`s Recipe Index" now has a couple of hundred recipes in it? Yup! Just click on this link: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=5146

You asked if I had a recommendation for a brine/recipe for bacon. I like the honey-rubbed, dry method myself and my recipe is called the "Sons Of Bees Bacon" at this link: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=4979. I also like to add a little maple syrup with the honey in this recipe.

You indicated that you were interested in making salt pork so I included a recipe for it in my recipe called "Bad Bob`s Bacon Balm" at this link: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=15.

Yooper, you also asked about a brine-curing method for bacon. I recommend Stan Marianski`s instructions and recipe at this link: http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/hams-other ... red-smoked. He has also listed instructions and recipes for injection curing and even his recipe for dry curing at this link also.

Good luck pal, and give a shout if we can assist you in any way.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by YooperDog » Mon Jul 02, 2012 17:47

Chuck Wagon

Thanks for your banger recipe. They turned out great. Unfortunately no photos to post maybe next batch. Plan was to make 5lbs. of bangers and 10lbs breakfast, got a good package deal on some butts. Well my 10lbs of breakfast turned into 25lbs, weighing after grinding, packages must have been missed marked. Along with a mislabled casing container, bangers and breakfast are now the same size. But finishing up at 0430 in the morning didn't endear me to the Chief of House for a photo opportunity. Will do photos with the parowka and vienna after the July 4th week.

Hope that all is great in your neck of the woods and the fires out that way aren't affecting you.

Best regards,
YooperDog
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Post by Baconologist » Tue Jul 03, 2012 06:38

Careful, if propylene glycol is an issue for you, be advised that some Cure #1 and #2 also contain it.
Don't be satisfied with the limited ingredient list provided by some sellers, ask for the MSDS sheets for the product so you can confirm exactly what's in it.
Godspeed!

Bob
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Post by Chuckwagon » Tue Jul 03, 2012 06:56

finishing up at 0430 in the morning didn't endear me to the Chief of House
Yooper my friend, If your "One who must be obeyed" objects to the hours you keep while making sausage, then remind her that:
1. you are saving a fortune over retail prices in a grocery, and
2. you could be downtown shootin' pool and drinkin' suds all night with Bunny, Kandi, and Brandi! :lol:

YooperDoggie, I'm glad the sausage turned out well. Was it like the bangers you've had in the past? You also wrote:
My Vienna recipe will be my first shot at adding a cure and an emulsified sausage. Mine called for salt peter so I will use the Cure #1 using the conversion site you sent me.
Shucks Doggie, one of us read the other's mind! I just made 10 pounds of Vienna today. It turned out marvelous... and you can hear me patting myself on the back way out here! :mrgreen: I made my own blade for an attachment that goes into a commercial food processor. I keep it razor sharp to cut any connective tissue to the point you wouldn't even believe it existed in the first place. I add a bit of icewater and whip air into the mixture until it's lighter and reminds one of being almost "fluffy". It's just like "whipped" meat when it goes into the casing. Prep cooked to 148°F in about 3 hours time, the texture is amazing and the flavor is out of this world. Very simple recipe with only salt, pepper, Cure #1, a little ice water, and traces of nutmeg, coriander, cardamon, cloves, and some powdered dextrose. Give a shout if you'd like the exact recipe.
Hope yours turns out well. I'll keep my ears open to hear you patting yourself on the back!

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by YooperDog » Tue Jul 10, 2012 19:12

Baconologist

Thanks for the update on P-G. I have been checking labels pretty much for all kinds of things I don't care to ingest. I don't have a problem with it I just didn't realize all the baggage that came with it until I read Chuck Wagons article.

Jim
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Post by YooperDog » Tue Jul 10, 2012 19:28

Chuckwagon

We just had the perfect storm arrive for the holiday week. Unexpected guests, family events, trying to accommodate all, travel to family events, commitments, etc.... Just got to be a bit much to make all that sausage with the whirlwind of activity going on. The wife really enjoys the finished products and even helping out, just bad timing and I didn't want to freeze the meat.

Got my pork bellies, one skinless the other with the skin just waiting for the cures to arrive. Vienna, parowka and bacon are on the list next. I will definitely need some smaller casings, about #22 sheep should work for those two I think.

I never one to turn down a sausage recipe; I would gladly accept yours if the offer stands. I plan on using a food processor also to emulsify the meat. My first try so I will keep it down to a 10 pound batch. I have a difficult time eating those from the can compared to the ones I could purchase from the butcher shop when I lived in parts of Europe.

Regards,
YooperDog
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Post by Chuckwagon » Wed Jul 11, 2012 06:52

Hi Yooper Dog,
Well, here ya go. I hope you like 'em. If not, then I'll buy you a bushel of tomatoes to throw at me! :wink:

"Viennas Veneno y Asqueroso de Vaqueros"
(Cowboy`s Poison & Disgusting Vienna Sausage)
(Made With "Imitation Veal")

My extended ranching family of Swiss renegades, banditos, and rustlers has always liked sausage from the old country and especially neighboring Austria. You know...Vienna Sausage! However, we have always chosen to avoid the purchase of veal, protesting the treatment of the animal from which it comes. So, what do folks like us use in place of veal? Buttermilk-soaked pork cutlets of course! Shucks, I learned that trick from King Louis XIV when I was just a child during the renaissance. People tell me milk-soaked pork is very much like veal. Buttermilk has a pH ranging from 4.41 - 4.83 due to its slightly acidic nature which tenderizes pork when refrigerated overnight.

4 lbs. (1.8 kg) lean beef
4 lbs. (l.8 kg) pork tenderloin
2 lbs. (907 g.) trimmed pork shoulder
1 pint (473 ml.) icewater
3 oz. (85 g.) kosher salt
6 tblspns. (40 g.) Fat Replacer™
1-1/2 cups (180 g.) soy protein concentrate
1 tspn. (2 g.) ground nutmeg
1 tspn. (2 g.) ground coriander
1/2 tspn. (1 g.) ground cardamom
1/4 tspn. (.5 g.) ground cloves
2 oz. (57 g.) rye flour
1 oz. (28 g.) powdered dextrose
2 tspns. (10 g.) Cure #1
22-24 m.m. sheep casings

Dice 4 lbs. of pork tenderloin and soak it in buttermilk overnight in a covered container in your refrigerator eight to twelve hours. Next day, cube the remaining beef and pork and grind all the meat using a 3/8" plate. Stir the cure #1 into the water for uniform dispersal. Have a chilled lug ready (five minutes inside your freezer will do the trick) and place the meat in it with the salt and spices. Add the flour, protein concentrate, fat replacer, and dextrose, pour the cure-water over the mixture, and then loosely mix everything with your hands for a few minutes. Cover the sausage and place it into the refrigerator overnight.
Next day, use a processor or your new Kirby chopper to emulsify the meat very well. Add more icewater if necessary and whip the slightly-thinned mixture full of air.

Hang the sausages on smokesticks and dry them while you pre-heat your smoker to 170°F. (77°C.). Place the sausages in the smokehouse and open the dampers slightly while you introduce light smoke. When the internal meat temperature reaches 150°F. (66°C.), shower the sausages with cold water. (Do not allow these sausages to reach the IMT of 165° or more.) For best flavor, refrigerate the Vienna sausages 24 hours before eating them.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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