Chorizo fermentation temp !!

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Chorizo fermentation temp !!

Post by ped » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:10

Morning all

Hope you can help?, I have made my first batch of Chorizo, the recipe advised to ferment at 70 deg, but as it is my first time I haven't sorted the fermenting chamber out to give constant temps yet so they have fluctuated up and down according to the ambient temp outside the chamber, I'm not so worried about the drop in temp but when I checked this morning the temp was at 77 deg!!, so the question is, have I screwed up and ruined this batch because they got too warm or is it safe to carry on and start the drying part?
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Post by Cabonaia » Mon Apr 22, 2013 14:49

Hey Ped - 77F is probably not an issue. But you need to provide more detail to get the advice you want. What recipe are you using? Did you use a starter culture? If so, what type? Do you have a way of testing pH, such as pH test strips? How long did it stay at 77?

Cheers,
Jeff
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Post by ped » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:39

Thanks for the response Jeff, to answer your questions:

1. Marianski's/Molinari's recipe
2. Starter, F-LC
3. According to litmus reading there seems little or no change in ph of 7ish!
4. Because of the fluctuating temp it stayed in the fermenting chamber for approx. 70 hours but as for 77 degs, it occurred overnite so temp would have increased throughout the nite from a base of approx. 66 degs

So what do you think?

Regards
Ped
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Post by Cabonaia » Tue Apr 23, 2013 15:23

Hi Ped - With a pH of 7, acidification has not taken place. According to the table in this link, the problem may be too low a temp for the starter you used. Note that required fermentation temps for F-LC are all >77F.

http://www.alliedkenco.com/pdf/Culture% ... 20Uses.pdf

I looked at the Marianski and Molinari recipes. I don't know what sort of combination you used, but at the least it seems you may have used the Molinari recommended starter with the Marianski procedure. Marianski's recipe lists T-SPX, which stipulates a fementation range of 64 - 75F, which is apparently what you were aiming for, while Molinari lists F-LC which requires temps ranging from 77 all the way up to 115F.

There are much more knowledgeable salami makers on this site, and hopefully they will weigh in here. Why don't you include your whole recipe exactly as you used it, and just as important, the process you used, step by step. Meanwhile, I'd say this - Marianski recipes are rock solid. Molinari is more of a beginner who is blogging his learning experiences. I enjoy his blog and read it...do note that his Chorizo did not turn out! He gave it a C+. The other thing I'd recommend is that you buy the Marianski book on making fermented sausages.

http://bookmagic.com/books/art-of-makin ... d-sausages

It is fantastic. You can also read his publications on-line, though for myself I like having the book.

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/

As to whether you can save your chorizo, I'm not going to try to answer that question. Chuckwagon, please weigh in!

Cheers,
Jeff

PS - welcome to the forum!
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Post by ped » Tue Apr 23, 2013 17:18

Thanks again Jeff, typical of me to combine 2 recipe's and combine it incorrectly!!, here's the exact recipe I used:

Meat: 1520gms
gms % of meat
Salt 42.56 2.80%
Cure #2 3.65 0.24%
Black Pepper 9.12 0.60%
Sugar 3.04 0.20%
Dextrose 3.04 0.20%
(Sweet) Smoked Paprika 30.40 2.00%
Oregano (Dried) 3.04 0.20%
F-LC Starter Culture 0.53 0.035% didn't have T-SPX
Cayenne pepper 1.52 0.10%
(Fresh) Garlic 13.68 0.90%

Happy for any and all opinions

Ped
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Post by Cabonaia » Wed Apr 24, 2013 01:00

Hi Ped - It looks like you pretty much followed the Molinari recipe, and that your pH drop did not occur because of too low temp. From the Marianski site:

"Bactoferm™ F-LC is a patented culture blend capable of acidification as well as preventing growth of Listeria. The culture produces pediocin and bavaricin (kind of "antibiotics") and that keeps Listeria monocytogenes at safe levels. Low fermentation temperature (<25&ordm; C, 77&ordm; F) results in a traditional acidification profile whereas high fermentation temperature (35-45&ordm; C, 95-115&ordm; F) gives a US style product."

I assume that you dropped the temp back to 70F and acidification is still going very slowly, since F-LC wants a higher temp. You need to jump the acidification safety hurdle of 5.3 or less before you start the drying/curing process.

So raise the temp of your incubation atmosphere.

I would like someone more knowledgeable to advise you as well, especially regarding safety. How many hours has this sausage been incubating?

Cheers,
Jeff
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Post by ped » Wed Apr 24, 2013 09:04

Morning Jeff

Because it got to 77deg I got them out into the curing chamber running at 59deg as they had been fermenting for what I thought was the requisite period. I started fermenting last Thursday, transferred to curing chamber sunday, where it has stayed.

I have to say it smells really good, I do hope I don't have to bin it?


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Post by Chuckwagon » Wed Apr 24, 2013 09:06

Chuckwagon, please weigh in!
You`ve pretty much covered it Jeff. F-LC is recommended for the production of all types of fermented sausages. Depending on fermentation temperature, acidification is either traditional, fast or extra fast. Ped`s project should be just fine although I wouldn`t recommend "crossing" or combining recipes. It`s pretty hard to go wrong if you just follow Stan Marianski`s tried-n-true, expert advice and recipes.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by ped » Wed Apr 24, 2013 17:01

Does that mean CW that I should return it to the fermenting chamber, get it to 77deg min for 48hrs and then start the curing bit, or should I just leave in the curing chamber to dry? But if I leave it in the curing chamber will it increase in acidification?

Ped
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Post by story28 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 01:19

CW, do you know if there are any advantages for using T-SPX or F-RM vs. F-LC? For instance, if you can control your environment to the exact specifications needed by F-RM or T-SPX, does F-LC produce the exact same results?

I was thinking about switching over to only using F-LC because of the versatility, but I thought there might be some benefit in quality using the finicky starter cultures since I can control the fermentation environment.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:27

Cabonaia wrote:
It seems you may have used the Molinari recommended starter with the Marianski procedure. Marianski's recipe lists T-SPX, which stipulates a fementation range of 64 - 75F, which is apparently what you were aiming for, while Molinari lists F-LC which requires temps ranging from 77 all the way up to 115F.
Ped asked:
Does that mean CW that I should return it to the fermenting chamber, get it to 77deg min for 48hrs and then start the curing bit, or should I just leave in the curing chamber to dry? But if I leave it in the curing chamber will it increase in acidification?
Story28 wrote
...are any advantages for using T-SPX or F-RM vs. F-LC? For instance, if you can control your environment to the exact specifications needed by F-RM or T-SPX, does F-LC produce the exact same results? I was thinking about switching over to only using F-LC because of the versatility, but I thought there might be some benefit in quality using the finicky starter cultures since I can control the fermentation environment.
Ped, by your choice of F-LC, you have the added quality of a much stronger flavor development and a good, stable color produced in much shorter time by Staphylococcus xylosus. Remember, the flavor of the sausage is also largely influenced by the final pH, type of sugar used, and of course, any spices used. Please note that the "fast" cultures (using higher fermentation temperatures) produce a much more "tangy" flavor.
If you return the sausage to 77 degrees (or higher) in the fermentation chamber with 90% humidity for 48 hours, you`ll simply create a tangy, quickly-dried product in the short time (2 weeks at the most) it takes to drop below 5.0 pH to the desired 4.6 pH. If you prefer a more subtle, less tangy flavor, drop your fermentation temperature to 70 degrees and don`t allow the acidification to drop below 4.8 at any time. This will allow the staphylococci time enough to reduce nitrates over a longer period of time. It was Stan Marianski`s preference to use the slow T-SPX, where after a month and a half, the flavor (called "aromatic") is much more subdued with a relatively mild acidification (European style).
It is important to remember that the speed of fermentation is due to the temperature and higher temps produce faster fermentation. If the fermentation temperature drops to < 53 degrees Fahrenheit, the lactic acid bacteria may stop metabolizing sugar. The acidity of a sausage simply depends upon the amount and type of sugar used in the recipe. If more sugar is added, a higher acidity (lower pH) is obtained and the sausage gains a more sour flavor.

Jason, your question is, "do the other cultures produce the exact same results"? No, they absolutely do not. The reason is incredibly simple: the "fast" cultures (using higher fermentation temperatures) produce a much more "tangy" flavor. As beneficial bacteria vary in type and number inside each culture, their specific effects will continually vary. This quick, "American" tangy flavor is not preferred in Europe, especially in southern Europe. If I were you, I would not change the cultures in "tried" recipes written by professionals like Stan Marianski. Believe me, Stan knows the qualities of each culture and he chooses them for his recipes for a reason. When we start substituting cultures or ingredients, we certainly cannot expect our products to be the same.

For our comparison, here are the brief descriptions of the four most commonly used cultures.

Meat Starter Culture Bactoferm™ LHP (Fast: 5.0 pH in 2 days)
LHP is a freeze-dried culture well suited for all fermented sausages where a relatively pronounced acidification is desired. This culture is recommended for the production of traditional fermented, dry sausages with a sourly flavor note.
Each 42-gram packet of LHP will treat 500 pounds (225 kilo) of meat.
Note: Cultures must be stored in freezer and has a shelf life of 14 days unrefrigerated and 6 months frozen.

Bactoferm™ F-LC (Short or Traditional Fermentation Time / Also: Added Listeria protection)
Bactoferm™ F-LC meat culture with bioprotective properties for production of fermented sausages with short or traditional production times. F-LC is recommended for the production of all types of fermented sausages. Depending on fermentation temperature, acidification is either traditional, fast or extra fast. F-LC is a mixed culture containing Pediococcus acidilactici, Lactobacillus curvatus and Staphylococcus xylosus in a convenient freeze-dried form. P. acidilactici ensures reliable acidification whereas S. xylosus results in strong flavor development and a good, stable color. Due to bacteriocin production both L. curvatus and P. acidilactici contribute to suppressing growth of Listeria monocytogenes.
Each 25-gram packet of Bactoferm™ F-LC will treat 220 pounds (100 kilo) of meat.

Meat Starter Culture Bactoferm™ F-RM-52 (Medium: 5.0 pH in 4 days)
Bactoferm™ F-RM-52 is a freeze-dried culture well suited for all fermented sausages where a relatively fast acidification is desired. The culture is recommended for the production of traditional North European types of fermented, dry sausages with a sourly flavor note.
Each 25-gram packet of Bactoferm™ F-RM-52 will treat 220 pounds (100 kilo) of meat.
Note: Cultures must be stored in freezer and has a shelf life of 14 days unrefrigerated and 6 months frozen.

Meat Starter Culture Bactoferm™ T-SPX (Slow: Assists with drying a month or more) Also: Semi Dry Cured
Bactoferm™ T-SPX is a freeze-dried culture well suited for all fermented sausages where a relatively mild acidification is desired. T-SPX is particularly recommended for the production of Southern European type of sausages, low in acidity with an aromatic flavor. The culture is suitable for moulded as well as smoked fermented sausages. (Semi Dry Cured)
Each 25-gram packet of Bactoferm™ T-SPX will treat 440 pounds (200 kilo) of meat.
Note: Cultures must be stored in freezer and has a shelf life of 14 days unrefrigerated and 6 months frozen.

Note the duration periods for fermentation - slow, intermediate, fast, or extra fast. Please note that the "fast" cultures (using higher fermentation temperatures) produce a much more "tangy" flavor.

Cultures for fermentation below 75°;F. (24°;C.)
T-RM-53......Slow (European style)
T-SP
T-SPX
T-D-66.........Intermediate
T-SC-150
T-SL

Cultures for fermentation from 70°;- 90°;F. (22°;- 32°;C.)
F-RM-52........Medium (American style)
F-RM-7
F-SC-111
F-1
LP..................Fast
LL-1
CSL
LL-2
F-2

Culture for fermentation from 80°;- 100°;F. (26°;- 38°;C.)
LHP...............Extra Fast

Culture for fermentation from 86°;- 115°;F. (30°;- 45°;C.)
CSB...............Extra Fast

F-PA

Culture for fermentation from 90°;- 115°;F. (32°;- 45°;C.)
HPS...............Extra Fast


Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
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Post by story28 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 14:52

Thanks for the great response, CW.

What I mean to say is that T-SPX requires 68 F at 85% humidity for three days. Would there be any difference in texture, flavor, appearance, etc (for better or worse) if I were to use F-LC in those exact same conditions described, instead of using T-SPX.

Conversely, if I used F-RM at 86 F, for 24 hours, would the F-LC produce any differences in quality in that application?


If there is absolutely no difference, I don't understand why they would manufacture two products that can only function within a small spectrum, even though there is a product that can operate on all ends of the spectrum.
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Post by ped » Thu Apr 25, 2013 17:32

Yes great response CW thank you, so in short, I can take out of curing chamber and give it shot of warmth with high humidity and keep an eye on the ph?
Does it matter how long it stays in the fermentation chamber to achieve the ph?, surely too long will make the meat rancid?
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Post by Baconologist » Thu Apr 25, 2013 18:20

There's little difference between T-SPX and F-LC when fermented at the same low temperature.

Using F-LC is a good idea (it protects against Listeria) and there's nothing wrong with following Jason Molinari's recipes, he's quite adamant about maintaining authenticity as much as possible.

The Listeria risk should always be taken very seriously.
Listeria is tolerant of high-salt, low-temperature and low-pH.

Listeria: A foodborne pathogen that knows how to survive.
http://www.foodscience.rutgers.edu/chik ... -113-1.pdf
Godspeed!

Bob
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Post by story28 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 18:56

Hi Bob. I appreciate your input, although, I defer my question to CW, specifically. I am interested in the specificity of the microbiology behind these two starter cultures and how they interact with sugar and meat during fermentation. With CW's pedigree, I think he can offer us insight beyond information that is already known or readily available with a few mouse clicks.
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