Why not just leave fermenting sausages in a container indoor

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markizschnitzel
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Why not just leave fermenting sausages in a container indoor

Post by markizschnitzel » Thu Nov 01, 2018 19:17

Hello all

There is A LOT of information here. So I might be missing an obvious answer to my question.
All of these things, like starter cultures, fermentation and such are new to me.

As they would be new for 99% of people making sausages home where I live.

I am from Croatia. Central europe/Mediterranean. We make paprika salami, mostly.

But it's always just salt (no nitrites), paprika and garlic.

Sugar is added by very few. And predictably, results are warrying. Depend on the luck. On the timing, climate and such.

So I want to learn.

From what i gather:
- if I use starter culture, there is no need to use nitrites, as starter will outcompete bad bacteria
- each starter has optimal fementation conditions. I am planning to use bactoferm T-SPX.
- i need to provide a high humidity and constant tempt of at least 22 C.


What I don't understand:
- my house is heated to 22-23C. Why not just keep sausages indoors for few days, until oh drops enough?
- if humidity is only to not allow aw and surface to dry out too fast, why can't I just put sausages in a plastic container, cover, and leave it indoors? That would accomplish the same thing?

What am I missing?
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Bob K
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Post by Bob K » Thu Nov 01, 2018 19:57

Welcome to the Forum! The subjects on this page should answer all your questions and more...
https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausag ... ty-hurdles
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Post by markizschnitzel » Thu Nov 01, 2018 20:03

I've read that one, and I guess I am misding something, since I don't see explained why can't the sausages be just packed together, instead of being in a small chamber which does not have much air anway?
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Post by Bob K » Thu Nov 01, 2018 21:14

For the fermentation step. yes you can use an enclosed container. Some folks have even fermented in a water bath.
As far as bacterial cultures replacing the need to use nitrates, that is not true. Read again about safety hurdles. They provide an added layer of safety.
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Post by redzed » Sun Nov 04, 2018 18:01

Hello markizschnitzel and welcome to the forum! Nice to have another member from Croatia. I visited your country twice and the closest that was to your village was Osijek.

There is a bit of a learning curve when starting out to make dry cured fermented sausages, but once you understand the fundamentals you will be well on your way. There is a ton of info in past posts in our forum and also on this associated site https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausag ... ed-sausage

You can learn a lot about bacteria in starter cultures from these Chr. Hansen publications. Links to PDF versions of Vols. 1-3 are here: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=4796

It also would be a good idea to purchase a copy of The Art of Mking Fermented Sausages by Stanley Marianski. It also might be available for free on Kindle Unlimited. There is also available a free download of a publication that is somewhat useful, Vol. 2 of the Meat Processor's Journal, Dry and Semi-Dry Sausage Production, , http://www.meatingplace.com/Ebook/MeatP ... ournalVol2 If you have trouble downloading it, send me a PM with your email and I will send it to you.

As to your question about not using nitrite, the answer is no, you do need nitrite as it works in tandem with the bacteria cultures in developng colour, aroma, flavour and it protects the salami from pathogens and preserves it.
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Post by reddal » Sat Nov 10, 2018 14:18

Hi,

I find this works very well. Initially I tried to setup a fermentation chamber with the right temperature and humidity, but found it tricky to get a consistent temperature throughout the chamber in a small space.

Instead, I moved to fermenting in sealed containers in a room where normal heating and AC keeps a stable temp. The humidity inside the boxes stays very high of course - which is perfect at this stage.

Once fermentation is complete I then hang in a drying room.

One point - if using this method I think its best to apply any mold solution after fermentation, as I don't know if the mold will survive several days without air.

- reddal

p.s. apologies if there are empty posts above this - I was getting an error whenever I tried to post a reply with a quote in it - leaving an empty post that doesn't allow edits?
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Post by Bob K » Sat Nov 10, 2018 14:40

reddal wrote:p.s. apologies if there are empty posts above this - I was getting an error whenever I tried to post a reply with a quote in it - leaving an empty post that doesn't allow edits?
Not sure why you were getting the error message with quotes. You should be able to edit or delete a post for 60 minutes...but the site has been a little cranky lately. It wont allow me to delete the empty posts, which I can usually do.

Bob
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Post by markizschnitzel » Sun Nov 11, 2018 09:29

Thank you all!

I am really "pumped", and the traditional time when making these products is upon us here, so I am rushing.
I think I will definitely try to do the fermentation is a container this time around, and try to build a fermentation chamber when time permits. If I manage to do it by the end of the year, I'll probably make a second batch with meat from the butchers, instead of farm raised.
The chamber, the way I plan it, would not cost me more than ~100€ and a days work. So even if it does not pan out, it's not the end of the world.
I still have to browse through that section of this great forum.

redzed wrote:Hello markizschnitzel and welcome to the forum! Nice to have another member from Croatia. I visited your country twice and the closest that was to your village was Osijek.
That's cool.
If you are into it, definitely try the traditional "Kulin" sausage. It's basically hungarian salami (though it does have regional origin seal), but with a very large diameter. Not only because it's from my area, but when done right asnd the planets align, it's really special, by far the best salami out there.

Problem is, most people and how they make it, it's incosistent. My long term goal is to try to come up with a process for it involving cultures and see how that goes. There are some producers here experimenting with cultures in Kulin, but i have not yet tried it.
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Post by Bob K » Sun Nov 11, 2018 14:38

The main reason for not fermenting in an enclosed container is no air flow, so too little drying is taking place and a slime will start to form opening the door to possible problems. Even though fermentation should take place in a high 90% humidity environment, some drying is taking place.
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Post by reddal » Sun Nov 11, 2018 19:24

Bob K wrote:The main reason for not fermenting in an enclosed container is no air flow, so too little drying is taking place and a slime will start to form opening the door to possible problems. Even though fermentation should take place in a high 90% humidity environment, some drying is taking place.
I guess it depends on the length of the fermentation, I tend to ferment for about 48-72 hrs at 18.5c and I've never had a problem with slime. If fermenting for longer or at higher temps I guess the enclosed ferment method might not work so well.

Yes you miss out on a couple of days of drying with an enclosed ferment, but the advantage I find is its much easier to achieve an even and constant temp. When I was fermenting in a small temp controlled chamber I was finding that some product in the chamber was over fermenting and some under, because it's very difficult to achieve an even temperature in a small chamber. In a large room it's easy to maintain a constant temp (thanks to heating and ac systems) with the only compromise being you have to have 99% humidity (enclosed box) instead of 90+%.

Personally I found this method extremely useful - it allowed me to go from struggling to get consistent results from small batches to reliably getting consistent results from many larger batches. However I know it isn't the traditional approach so I'm interested in opinions about the compromises I'm making.

- reddal
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Post by redzed » Tue Nov 13, 2018 17:20

Hi Mark,

I ferment in an insulated portable plastic cooler, the type you take camping or transport your fish in. I play around with my salami making in the lower level of my house where the temp in the summer is around 20-22 and 15-16 in winter. In the summer the ambient fermenting temp is perfect and in the winter I have a small heater set up inside with a temperature controller to bring the temp up a bit. I also place a bowl with salted water into the container to keep up the humidity, which should be 90% or higher. The salt in the water is there to prevent bacteria from forming.

While a separate chamber with all the right parameters and air flow is ideal, you can certainly get by with fermenting in any enclosed environment as long as the temp and humidity are right. Many hobbyists successfully ferment in a plastic storage bin, and these are available in many different sizes. If you do happen to get a bit of slime cover after 2 or 3 days of fermentation, wash the sausages off in lukewarm salty water before transferring to the curing chamber.

I am am now staying in a place where I have only occasional internet access. Will try and add to the other comments relating to your other questions when I have more time.
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Post by markizschnitzel » Wed Nov 14, 2018 21:05

This is such a great community you have here, thanks again for taking the time.

I will now take a month to make a definitive list of what I need, learn all of the basics, then get everything.

By the time hams are finished curing, I hope to have a first batch of cultured sausages, so I can smoke together.
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