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Drying times

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 16:26
by atcNick
I'm reading the art of making fermented sausages. I notice two recipes almost the same. Salami finnochiona and genoa. Amount of weight loss and casing size is the same, but finnochiona is ready in 30 days, genoa 2-3 months. Can anyone explain this to me?

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 17:03
by ssorllih
look at the grinding instruction one calls for 3/8 and the other 3/16 plate.

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 17:14
by atcNick
Hah! Didn't notice that. So I guess the finer the grind the faster a sausage dries?

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 19:43
by ssorllih
Apparently. CW can probably say for certain.

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 21:56
by Chuckwagon
Ross is correct. The total surface area in comminuted sausage is a huge factor. Also, note that the Alysandra has more sugar content which requires more time for the pediococcus to break down the carbohydrate into lactic acid. Also, Genoa is also made with 40% lean beef which means more meat (with sugar) and less fat (as in pork). Additionally, the recipe contains red wine, adding much moisture to the mass. Once interspersed, not only does the protein structure change, but it also requires more time to simply dehydrate. The real trick is not to dry it too quickly believe it or not. When the dehydration is slow and even at the prescribed rate of the recipe, it will be successful. People have notoriously tried to hasten the drying time, thus case-hardening the product which essentially locks moisture inside. This is a feast for any residual spoilage bacteria (and pathogenic bacteria for that matter), to spoil the sausage. Most people have an issue with achieving 95% RH. At room temperature this can be difficult and a curing chamber becomes necessary.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 23:36
by atcNick
Thanks cw

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 05:47
by Baconologist
Excellent question!
Salami Finnochiona and Genoa, right?
I re-read the thread and can't see where exactly the Alysandra fits in, but anyway, the best answer is "they're done when they're done.

In general, all other factors being equal, the sausage with the courser grind dries a bit faster.

The Salami Finocchiona has the wine and the finer grind working against it as far as drying time goes.

Best of luck!

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 13:40
by atcNick
Baconologist wrote:Excellent question!
Salami Finnochiona and Genoa, right?
I re-read the thread and can't see where exactly the Alysandra fits in, but anyway, the best answer is "they're done when they're done.

In general, all other factors being equal, the sausage with the courser grind dries a bit faster.

The Salami Finocchiona has the wine and the finer grind working against it as far as drying time goes.

Best of luck!
That's contrary to what the recipe says. Finocchiona has the finer grind AND the wine but the drying time says 30 days. Genoa has no wine and a courser grind and drying time says 2-3 months.

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 15:07
by uwanna61
Nick
My thoughts when using SPX culture, that the drying time will take a minimum of 6 weeks depending on size of the casing used and the environment that the salami`s are hanging in. Larger casing, longer dry time! As CW mentioned while using SPX culture, regulating the drying environment is key, and not to rush the project, too prevent case hardening and or spoilage.
I myself tend to get impatient using SPX, but the reality is, it is a slow working culture.

Wally

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 15:28
by Baconologist
atcNick wrote:
Baconologist wrote:Excellent question!
Salami Finnochiona and Genoa, right?
I re-read the thread and can't see where exactly the Alysandra fits in, but anyway, the best answer is "they're done when they're done.

In general, all other factors being equal, the sausage with the courser grind dries a bit faster.

The Salami Finocchiona has the wine and the finer grind working against it as far as drying time goes.

Best of luck!
That's contrary to what the recipe says. Finocchiona has the finer grind AND the wine but the drying time says 30 days. Genoa has no wine and a courser grind and drying time says 2-3 months.
Yes, I know what the recipes says, but as I said above, "they're done when they're done". Both salamis are dried until around 30-35% in weight is lost.

"In a course grind meat the moisture has more free room and shorter distance to the surface. In a fine grind the particles are very small and moisture has to overcome more surface area on its way to the surface."

Image

http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/drying

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 17:07
by atcNick
Baconologist wrote:
atcNick wrote:
Baconologist wrote:Excellent question!
Salami Finnochiona and Genoa, right?
I re-read the thread and can't see where exactly the Alysandra fits in, but anyway, the best answer is "they're done when they're done.

In general, all other factors being equal, the sausage with the courser grind dries a bit faster.

The Salami Finocchiona has the wine and the finer grind working against it as far as drying time goes.

Best of luck!
That's contrary to what the recipe says. Finocchiona has the finer grind AND the wine but the drying time says 30 days. Genoa has no wine and a courser grind and drying time says 2-3 months.
Yes, I know what the recipes says, but as I said above, "they're done when they're done". Both salamis are dried until around 30-35% in weight is lost.

"In a course grind meat the moisture has more free room and shorter distance to the surface. In a fine grind the particles are very small and moisture has to overcome more surface area on its way to the surface."

Image

http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/drying
Interesting! I wonder where the author came up with the 30 day drying time for finnochiona and 2-3 months for genoa? He seems to be contradicting himself.

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 07:28
by Chuckwagon
Baconologist, it is quite evident you have an issue with me personally instead of adding to an intelligent conversation and helping support those needing a little help. Must you question everything I write?
You wrote:
Salami Finnochiona and Genoa, right? I re-read the thread and can't see where exactly the Alysandra fits in, but anyway, the best answer is "they're done when they're done.
Really sir...you really can`t see where exactly Alysandra fits in? Perhaps that is because you don`t seem to realize that Alysandra IS Genoa. That`s how it "fits in". But don`t take my word for it. See for yourself at the top of page 401 in Home Production Of Quality Meats And Sausages by Stanley Mariansky.
If you would care to voice your problem with me, I would suggest you do it by PM instead of using the public forum.

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 16:26
by Baconologist
Please don't take it personally!
I don't have a problem with anyone here, but I do have a problem with the word Alysandra being associated with Genoan Salami. Alysandra isn't an Italian word as far as I know.
Even the Salami di Alessandra (as it's spelled in the Marianski books) is a mystery to me. My Grandmother and Mother both grew up near Genoa, and neither one has heard of such a thing.
Perhaps you can provide further reference? I'm definitely curious!

BTW: Alessandra=Alexandria in Italian

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 20:23
by Chuckwagon
Please don't take it personally!
I don't have a problem with anyone here, but I do have a problem with the word Alysandra being associated with Genoan Salami. Alysandra isn't an Italian word as far as I know.
Even the Salami di Alessandra (as it's spelled in the Marianski books) is a mystery to me. My Grandmother and Mother both grew up near Genoa, and neither one has heard of such a thing. Perhaps you can provide further reference? I'm definitely curious!
BTW: Alessandra=Alexandria in Italian
Thank you for your reply Baconologist. Perhaps the best solution would be to check with our fellow member and moderator Stan Marianski. He clearly wrote on page 401, "Salami Genoa is also known as Salami di Alessandra."

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 04:24
by Baconologist
I did some research on the Alessandro (correct spelling) salami.
Alessandro is an Italian influenced sausage of American origin, which explains why it's unheard of in Genoa, Italy.