I have made my sausage 3 times but twice with the same results of grey / green mold on the exterior surface?? What am I doing wrong??? I have pics, but cant upload them.
Thanks
Fermented sausage spoilage
Fermented sausage spoilage
Last edited by bkamp on Sat Jul 13, 2013 05:02, edited 1 time in total.
Please share some details with us, and I'll bet somebody can help. A recipe would be nice, as well as how you went about it and any questions you might have had as you went along. The pictures, though they also will help, aren't always necessary.
...sounds like you're dedicated, or you wouldn't have tried this a couple of times. Hopefully we'll all learn from it. ...looking forward to the details. Fermented sausage ain't for sissies, you know. (Now you REALLY know!)
Best regards
...sounds like you're dedicated, or you wouldn't have tried this a couple of times. Hopefully we'll all learn from it. ...looking forward to the details. Fermented sausage ain't for sissies, you know. (Now you REALLY know!)
Best regards
Experience - the ability to instantly recognize a mistake when you make it again.
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Chuckwagon
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- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
- Location: Rocky Mountains
Hi Bkamp,
Scientists believe that there may be 300,000 species of fungi. Most are filamentous and most can be transported by air, water, or insects. Of this number, the most common molds affecting meat and poultry are (in alphabetical order), Alternaria, Aspergillus, Botrytis, Cladosporium, Fusarium, Geotrichum, Monilia, Manoscus, Mortierella, Mucor, Neurospora, Oidium, Oosproa, Penicillium, Rhizopus and Thamnidium. With the exception of Penicillium, these are the ones that most often drive sausage makers kookoolooey (like El Ducko) and often display colors of green, purple, gray, yellow, and others. Some of these species produce poisonous microtoxins and scientists now estimate that 25% of the world's food crops are affected by them. This is particularly concerning because many of these mycotoxins are also aflatoxins - species that are also carcinogenic! The prevention of aflatoxin is one of the most challenging toxicology issues of our day. The federal Food And Drug Administration and the United States Department Of Agriculture specifically monitor peanuts and field corn for aflatoxin and have the power to remove any food or feed with unacceptable levels.
On the other hand... there is some good news. One particular species (Penicillium) is beneficial to us meat-heads! Penicillium is a genus of ascomyetous fungi. Yup, it is members of this genus that produce penicillin - a molecule that is used as an antibiotic which kills or stops the growth of certain kinds of bacteria inside our bodies. According to our latest medical publications, the penicillium genus contains over 300 species. Of these 300 species, only penicillium nagliovense or penicillium chrysogenum are recommended for home sausage making. These are the only two species having the ideal properties we are looking for in home-produced, dry-cured meat - although I`ve known a few people in Europe to use the cheesemaker`s favorites - penicillium roqueforti and penicillium camemberti, on meat.
Oh boy! With penicillium nagliovense and penicillium chrysogenum at our disposal and readily found on the market (Bactoferm™ is found in most sausage supplier`s catalogs) relatively cheaply, I do not understand why someone would want to cut corners financially by growing their own cultures by using the penicillium roqueforti and camemberti cultures (developed especially for cheese) from leftover cheese products.
SOOOoooo..... What does all this have to do with your problem? The thing you need to do is (a.) remove the toxic micro-organisms, and... (b.) replace them with safe, beneficial, white, powdery, flaky, penicillium nagliovense or penicillium chrysogenum. How does one go about this? First take a rag slightly dampened with vinegar. Sprinkle on a little salt and rub and remove the colored, toxic mold when it first shows up. It will quickly grow back unless you actually "crowd it out" with beneficial mold. Mix up a little Bactoferm™ "Mold 600" (previously called M-EK-4). Spray a little on the cleaned sausages and you`ll have a growth of white fluff you won`t believe in a week. The best procedure is to do this immediately after casing the sausage initially. Lots of folks like to "dip" their sausages rather than spray them.
Be aware that if you wait too long to clean off the colored mold, the "roots" may have penetrated the meat. Beneath a microscope, the one-celled mold looks incredible - composed of tiny, skinny, little mushroom-shaped microorganisms. Roots go into the meat, a "stalk" rises above the meat, and spores form at the ends of these stalks. The spores release the toxins and give the mold its color. Don`t smell or "sniff" the stuff! The airborne toxin can cause severe resperitory problems. Moreover, pathogenic bacteria may also accompany the mold. Toss any product that has a heavy growth of "colored" mold. White, powdery, nagliovense is the only mold you want on the outside of a salami! So, purchase a packet of "Mold-600". The culture has a positive effect on the drying process by preventing the emergence of dry rim. Furthermore, the mold degrades lactic acid during maturation resulting in a pH increase and a less sour flavor.
Store it in your freezer as without refrigeration, it has a shelf life of only 14 days. When frozen, it remains effective for 6 months. Add 3 grams of the M-600 to a cup of 68°;F. lukewarm (not hot) distilled, chlorine-free water, and allow it to develop 12 hours. After the 12 hours, add 1 liter of distilled, chlorine-free water. Dip sausages in the solution or spray it on with a misting sprayer.
Oh, by the way, (just to explain the "lingo" a little)... biologists use "spp." as a short way of saying that something applies to many species within a genus, but do not wish to say that it applies to all species within that genus. Note that spp. = species (plural) and sp.= specie (singular). If scientists mean that something applies to all species within a genus, they use the genus name without the specific epithet.
Welcome to the forum Bkamp. I hope this has helped. Let us know how you get on. Maybe a few photos if you can.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
Scientists believe that there may be 300,000 species of fungi. Most are filamentous and most can be transported by air, water, or insects. Of this number, the most common molds affecting meat and poultry are (in alphabetical order), Alternaria, Aspergillus, Botrytis, Cladosporium, Fusarium, Geotrichum, Monilia, Manoscus, Mortierella, Mucor, Neurospora, Oidium, Oosproa, Penicillium, Rhizopus and Thamnidium. With the exception of Penicillium, these are the ones that most often drive sausage makers kookoolooey (like El Ducko) and often display colors of green, purple, gray, yellow, and others. Some of these species produce poisonous microtoxins and scientists now estimate that 25% of the world's food crops are affected by them. This is particularly concerning because many of these mycotoxins are also aflatoxins - species that are also carcinogenic! The prevention of aflatoxin is one of the most challenging toxicology issues of our day. The federal Food And Drug Administration and the United States Department Of Agriculture specifically monitor peanuts and field corn for aflatoxin and have the power to remove any food or feed with unacceptable levels.
On the other hand... there is some good news. One particular species (Penicillium) is beneficial to us meat-heads! Penicillium is a genus of ascomyetous fungi. Yup, it is members of this genus that produce penicillin - a molecule that is used as an antibiotic which kills or stops the growth of certain kinds of bacteria inside our bodies. According to our latest medical publications, the penicillium genus contains over 300 species. Of these 300 species, only penicillium nagliovense or penicillium chrysogenum are recommended for home sausage making. These are the only two species having the ideal properties we are looking for in home-produced, dry-cured meat - although I`ve known a few people in Europe to use the cheesemaker`s favorites - penicillium roqueforti and penicillium camemberti, on meat.
Oh boy! With penicillium nagliovense and penicillium chrysogenum at our disposal and readily found on the market (Bactoferm™ is found in most sausage supplier`s catalogs) relatively cheaply, I do not understand why someone would want to cut corners financially by growing their own cultures by using the penicillium roqueforti and camemberti cultures (developed especially for cheese) from leftover cheese products. SOOOoooo..... What does all this have to do with your problem? The thing you need to do is (a.) remove the toxic micro-organisms, and... (b.) replace them with safe, beneficial, white, powdery, flaky, penicillium nagliovense or penicillium chrysogenum. How does one go about this? First take a rag slightly dampened with vinegar. Sprinkle on a little salt and rub and remove the colored, toxic mold when it first shows up. It will quickly grow back unless you actually "crowd it out" with beneficial mold. Mix up a little Bactoferm™ "Mold 600" (previously called M-EK-4). Spray a little on the cleaned sausages and you`ll have a growth of white fluff you won`t believe in a week. The best procedure is to do this immediately after casing the sausage initially. Lots of folks like to "dip" their sausages rather than spray them.
Be aware that if you wait too long to clean off the colored mold, the "roots" may have penetrated the meat. Beneath a microscope, the one-celled mold looks incredible - composed of tiny, skinny, little mushroom-shaped microorganisms. Roots go into the meat, a "stalk" rises above the meat, and spores form at the ends of these stalks. The spores release the toxins and give the mold its color. Don`t smell or "sniff" the stuff! The airborne toxin can cause severe resperitory problems. Moreover, pathogenic bacteria may also accompany the mold. Toss any product that has a heavy growth of "colored" mold. White, powdery, nagliovense is the only mold you want on the outside of a salami! So, purchase a packet of "Mold-600". The culture has a positive effect on the drying process by preventing the emergence of dry rim. Furthermore, the mold degrades lactic acid during maturation resulting in a pH increase and a less sour flavor.
Store it in your freezer as without refrigeration, it has a shelf life of only 14 days. When frozen, it remains effective for 6 months. Add 3 grams of the M-600 to a cup of 68°;F. lukewarm (not hot) distilled, chlorine-free water, and allow it to develop 12 hours. After the 12 hours, add 1 liter of distilled, chlorine-free water. Dip sausages in the solution or spray it on with a misting sprayer.
Oh, by the way, (just to explain the "lingo" a little)... biologists use "spp." as a short way of saying that something applies to many species within a genus, but do not wish to say that it applies to all species within that genus. Note that spp. = species (plural) and sp.= specie (singular). If scientists mean that something applies to all species within a genus, they use the genus name without the specific epithet.
Welcome to the forum Bkamp. I hope this has helped. Let us know how you get on. Maybe a few photos if you can.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! 
Attached is a pic which shows some of the "bad mold". The sausage was also sprayed with mold 600. Thanks
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/1194/photo1wu.jpg
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http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/1194/photo1wu.jpg
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Baconologist
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- Location: Oxford, New Jersey
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Chuckwagon
- Veteran
- Posts: 4494
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
- Location: Rocky Mountains
It looks indeed, like a proper start. I can detect very slight evidence of of debaromyces hanenii or candida formata. Take a photo or two in a day or two and let's have another look. You may have to remove some discoloration (yeast) with a bit of vinegar on a rag. Right now, allow the nalgiovense to develop and stay in touch with us. The project looks very nice. Well done Bkamp.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill!
Here is my recipe
7 lb pork shoulder
3 lb pork fat
77 g salt
23 g dextose
25 g red pepper flake
10 g fennel
12 g cure #2
7 g white pepper
2.5 g ascrobic acid
.5 g t-spx culture
tap water ice added when mixing
The recipe says incubate for 24 hrs, 90% rh, 85 degrees. I place in sun covered for 3 hrs, then moved to 60 degree cooler, humidified. Dont know what humidity level is, no meter.
But with problems im having could i be over humidifing?
Thanks, bkamp
Pics below
7 lb pork shoulder
3 lb pork fat
77 g salt
23 g dextose
25 g red pepper flake
10 g fennel
12 g cure #2
7 g white pepper
2.5 g ascrobic acid
.5 g t-spx culture
tap water ice added when mixing
The recipe says incubate for 24 hrs, 90% rh, 85 degrees. I place in sun covered for 3 hrs, then moved to 60 degree cooler, humidified. Dont know what humidity level is, no meter.
But with problems im having could i be over humidifing?
Thanks, bkamp
Pics below
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Chuckwagon
- Veteran
- Posts: 4494
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
- Location: Rocky Mountains
Bkamp, that's some nasty looking stuff, especially the green powdery mold at the top. Without a close look at it under a microscope, I can only tell you that it is definitely the type to throw out. Don`t take the chance pard.
I can tell you some of the possible causes and some of the possible remedies although you are taking a big chance trying to salvage that much incursion of microorganisms that most probably support toxins from spores. Some folks would say, "cut around it". But is it really worth taking the risk? Heck, this stuff is even bad to breathe in the air. Be careful taking it down from the hangers as powdery residue becoming airborne can really cause problems with your health.
Okay, you probably are not going to like what I`ve got to say, but you asked for help so I`ll offer my opinion and you can go from there. First of all, there are spores everywhere in the air and in damp basements and around non-sterile and questionable wood, boards, drywall, etc., one never knows what organisms are waiting to infect whatever brushes against it. This also holds true of the pathogenic bacteria we also fear and occasionally clostridium botulinum is spread in precisely this manner.
The best way to protect yourself is with knowledge. Please allow me to suggest that you read "The Art Of Making Fermented Sausages"... by Stan and Adam Marianski. (Type in "Bookmagic.com).
Then read, "Project A" in the "sausages" forum on this site. Project A has a large amount of practical information in it.
Many people don`t wish to bother reading all the latest information and even scoff at reading a book about it. Lots of folks say, "Well, for hundreds of years people have been making salami without cultures and they hung it in their basements without any problems".
The truth is, it was a gamble at best. Much or most of it failed. Today we know that only the penicillium nalgiovense or penicillium chrysangenum is desirable on the surface. Many people argue with this statement and claim that their grandfather didn`t use the stuff. That may be true, but how many grandfathers died of "natural causes"?
Bkamp, my advice is to put on a respirator and remove the sausage. Don`t breathe the dust of the mold as you take it down. Then bag it and toss it! Get rid of the stuff, read the book, and then make yourself a clean, (sterilized to begin with) curing chamber and storing chamber out of an old freezer or refrigerator. Include the proper controls for adjusting air flow, air temperature, and relative humidity. This will dent your wallet a bit. Probably about three hundred bills. But you`ll have UNIFORMITY and safely made air-dried products. Use cultures for your own protection, uniformity, and ease of handling. There`s just no other consistently safe and practical way to go about making fermented sausage in the modern world, although there is an alternative - one may continue making salami the old, traditional way and be prepared for a high rate of disappointment.
However, in the long run, it will probably cost you more for spoiled meat than it would for proper equipment.
Sorry chum, that`s the truth and lots of people take it hard. I don`t know any other way of telling you this news, but I would not like to be less than truthful. I would not be comfortable in giving you a lot of "band-aid" solutions. I hope you read Stan`s book and other material, and make a decent curing chamber. I hope you make successful salami. Most of all, I hope you do not become discouraged and quit at this point (as quite frankly, most others seem to do when they learn the cold, hard, facts... especially the financial layout). Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
I can tell you some of the possible causes and some of the possible remedies although you are taking a big chance trying to salvage that much incursion of microorganisms that most probably support toxins from spores. Some folks would say, "cut around it". But is it really worth taking the risk? Heck, this stuff is even bad to breathe in the air. Be careful taking it down from the hangers as powdery residue becoming airborne can really cause problems with your health.
Okay, you probably are not going to like what I`ve got to say, but you asked for help so I`ll offer my opinion and you can go from there. First of all, there are spores everywhere in the air and in damp basements and around non-sterile and questionable wood, boards, drywall, etc., one never knows what organisms are waiting to infect whatever brushes against it. This also holds true of the pathogenic bacteria we also fear and occasionally clostridium botulinum is spread in precisely this manner.
The best way to protect yourself is with knowledge. Please allow me to suggest that you read "The Art Of Making Fermented Sausages"... by Stan and Adam Marianski. (Type in "Bookmagic.com).
Then read, "Project A" in the "sausages" forum on this site. Project A has a large amount of practical information in it.
Many people don`t wish to bother reading all the latest information and even scoff at reading a book about it. Lots of folks say, "Well, for hundreds of years people have been making salami without cultures and they hung it in their basements without any problems".
The truth is, it was a gamble at best. Much or most of it failed. Today we know that only the penicillium nalgiovense or penicillium chrysangenum is desirable on the surface. Many people argue with this statement and claim that their grandfather didn`t use the stuff. That may be true, but how many grandfathers died of "natural causes"?
Bkamp, my advice is to put on a respirator and remove the sausage. Don`t breathe the dust of the mold as you take it down. Then bag it and toss it! Get rid of the stuff, read the book, and then make yourself a clean, (sterilized to begin with) curing chamber and storing chamber out of an old freezer or refrigerator. Include the proper controls for adjusting air flow, air temperature, and relative humidity. This will dent your wallet a bit. Probably about three hundred bills. But you`ll have UNIFORMITY and safely made air-dried products. Use cultures for your own protection, uniformity, and ease of handling. There`s just no other consistently safe and practical way to go about making fermented sausage in the modern world, although there is an alternative - one may continue making salami the old, traditional way and be prepared for a high rate of disappointment.
However, in the long run, it will probably cost you more for spoiled meat than it would for proper equipment. Sorry chum, that`s the truth and lots of people take it hard. I don`t know any other way of telling you this news, but I would not like to be less than truthful. I would not be comfortable in giving you a lot of "band-aid" solutions. I hope you read Stan`s book and other material, and make a decent curing chamber. I hope you make successful salami. Most of all, I hope you do not become discouraged and quit at this point (as quite frankly, most others seem to do when they learn the cold, hard, facts... especially the financial layout). Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill!
-
Chuckwagon
- Veteran
- Posts: 4494
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
- Location: Rocky Mountains
Bkamp, you asked:
Bleach is an ideal product for killing bacteria. It's cheap and a little goes a long way. Believe it or not, bleach will kill the AIDS virus. It is also commonly used to kill the hantivirus microorganism.
Bkamp, you might enjoy reading Stan's description of his book. Here's a quick link: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=4840
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
Freezing bacteria won't kill it. It simply makes it dormant. As soon as it warms up again (different degrees for different bacteria), they become active again and begin to grow (increase in number by multiplying).Will turning the freezer on for a prolonged time also kill any bacteria that may still exist in the air plenum etc...
Bleach is an ideal product for killing bacteria. It's cheap and a little goes a long way. Believe it or not, bleach will kill the AIDS virus. It is also commonly used to kill the hantivirus microorganism.
Bkamp, you might enjoy reading Stan's description of his book. Here's a quick link: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=4840
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill!
Thanks for thr reply, is there any way you know to kill bacteria that is not reachable by hand scrubbing that may exist in any unreachable places. Maybe a bowl of bleach and water solution left to evaporate with the chamber left on 50-55 degrees?
I have Marinski's book, but im not much of a reader!!
Thanks
I have Marinski's book, but im not much of a reader!!
Thanks
