Salami fermenting but no ph drop ! TSP-X

NicolasR · Post by **NicolasR** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 00:00

Red

The meat is definitely binding well and is actually very firm. A nice deep red color too (I'm guessing the Cure #2 is doing it's job too). Yes I might have the wrong strips and will surely get the Hydrion recommended for meat testing.

I'll hang the salami in the curing chamber tonight. Hope they did not spend too much time fermenting ?

I like a mild taste...I was using FR-M-52 before and thought it was too tangy. I'll keep you posted !

Thanks

Nicolas

NicolasR · Post by **NicolasR** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 01:30

Here's a photo of my curing chamber. Some cacciatore, some Rosette, a Lonzino and of course my new (ph problematic salami)

https://imageshack.com/i/f34c7lj

NicolasR · Post by **NicolasR** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 01:32

Or :

Post by **Bob K** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 17:30

You need some thicker dowels Nicolas!!

Are you using a Auber instruments controller?

NicolasR · Post by **NicolasR** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 17:38

Haha !

You're right Bob !

Yes I am using an Auber instruments controller. Works good !

Post by **Bob K** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 17:54

I have been looking at those for a while.

Looks like you have the TH102.

I think folks may have been having some problems in high humidity situations with the sensor on that unit as they now have this one available:

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=377

NicolasR · Post by **NicolasR** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 21:54

Yes I have the TH102. I've never had any problems with it. Even unintentionally sprayed the sensor with some water (and mold 600) and it still works fine

I guess for 20$ more, the other one is worth it !

Chuckwagon · Post by **Chuckwagon** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:44

Idakraut wrote:

Hopefully CW will add his expert opinion.

Rudy, ol` friend, that is a mighty kind thing to say... but I`m afraid I`m not an "expert". Just a guy with an opinion. However, I DO make a heck of a Dutch oven sourdough biscuit!

Redzed wrote some straight up information when he said:

For pork the starting ph is usually 5.8. Are you saying that the starting was around 6 and the same after 72 hours? If your measurements are accurate, then it seems that there is a problem. How are you testing the pH?. From my experience with TSP-X, fermenting at 72°F, I usually get a drop to 5.4 after 24hrs and to 5 after 48. Boost the temp to 80 or even 85 for the next 24hrs and see what happens. And for TSP-X I use sugar only and dextrose for the faster acting bacteria.

He's right about using sugar and he`s right about raising the temperature slightly too! Shucks, this guy has been around the block a few times eh?

NicolasR, let me ask a few questions. When you mixed the T-SPX initially, did you use distilled water only? (Very important). Was it bottled or did you make it yourself? Next, what type of thermometer and hygrometer are you using in your chamber? Last, tell me about your test strips please.

Home hobbyists, needing a convenient and inexpensive method of testing pH acidity in sausage, have found a product called "pHydrion Microfine Testing Strips". Is this the product you are using? The product is available from any pet store that sells fish or most sausage equipment suppliers for about $12.99 for a dispenser of 15 feet of litmus paper testing paper strips. The product is available in two ranges, first for testing acidity from 3.9 to 5.7 pH, and second, for testing acidity from 4.9 to 6.9 pH. Testing is done by color comparison and although the results may be less accurate than an electronic PawKit can provide, test strips are a bargain at about 6 cents per test!

To test, mix 1 part chopped meat with 2 parts distilled water, tear off an inch of testing paper, dip it into the solution, and match it to the color chart on the side of the dispenser. No technical training required! Keep us posted with the progress.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon

Igor Duńczyk · Post by **Igor Duńczyk** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 20:28

Hi Nicolas!
Cris mentioned something quite crucial: animal age. If young and freshly slaughtered the pH may be up and close to 7,0 whereas most producers of starter cultures operate with pH 5,8 as the average starting value. Facing a high start pH the culture has to work harder and even if the 0,3+0,2% dextrose/sugar combination is one I would use myself without any hesitation when working with "normal" pH 5,8 meat I would probably add more dextrose if I knew that the start pH was markedly higher.

But... apart from all this it is also now a proven fact that modern breeding methods may play a rather creepy role.
Not that it is likely to occur among wedlinydomowe enthusiasts who are picky about their raw materials - but still: In Denmark it has been scientifically proven that residual antibiotics are likely to hamper the activity of starter cultures as the still active residual may simply kills off the starter culture bacterias -or at least reduce their number

One more reason to rely on ecological / biological -or whatever you folks name it

NicolasR · Post by **NicolasR** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 20:32

Hi

Thanks for your reply and sorry I took so long to answer !

I just ordered those PH Hydrion test strips and will be using them next time that's for sure. I followed a recipe from S. Marianski's book. He uses dextrose and sugar with the TSP-X. Might go for sugar only next time.

I used bottled distilled water and I am monitoring temp. in my chamber with:

1) the auberins controller
2) a digital hygrometer and thermometer.
3) an "analog" hygrometer and thermometer.

The readings are pretty close (within 0.5%).

The test strips I had came from indigo instruments (ph 3.0 to 6.0).

I used ecological farm raised pork. I guess I should have added more dextrose after testing the meat's ph but I couldn't be sure what exactly the ph was. I'll know next time !

For now, the salame are in the curing chamber and loosing weight.

Once the drying process is done I could always check the ph then ?

thanks

Chuckwagon · Post by **Chuckwagon** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 13:10

Nickolas, you wrote:

Might go for sugar only next time.

There are reasons Stan has chosen powdered dextrose as an ingredient. The substance is only 70% as sweet as sucrose. Moreover, there are inconsistencies to be considered in completely dropping the sugar from a recipe. Using added sugar to nourish lactic acid bacteria is an ages-old secret of adding tang to a preserved product. Simply stated, the more sugar (dextrose ideally) that is used, the more sour or "tangy" the product will become. Of the pediococci bacteria, the two most widely used strains used in sausage making are pediococcus pentosaceus and pediococcus acidilactici. These are the most dependable and consistent for fermentation, thriving on sugar - dextrose ideally - as glucose (dextrose) is the most simple of all forms of sugar, being utilized quickly to produce rapid fermentation. Glucose, produced from cornstarch, is only about 70% as sweet as sucrose refined from sugar beets or sugar cane, then being combined with fructose from fruit. Lactose (called milk sugar) binds water very well but has poor fermenting quality and non-fat dry milk contains about 52% lactose. For this reason, I choose to add dextrose to fermented sausage rather than powdered milk composed of more than half lactose - the worst choice of fermenting sugars.

Here is a sugar chart for your reference:
Dextrose - (see Glucose)
Glucose (also called "Dextrose") is sugar refined from corn starch. It is the most simple in make-up of all types of sugar and therefore the most readily used by lactobacilli.
Saccharose - (see Sucrose)
Sucrose is common table sugar and made from sugar beets in my area or sugar cane in the south. Sucrose is also called "saccharose" and it is also found in fruit, honey, and even DaveZac`s sugar maple tree sap. Sucrose is half glucose and half fructose. It is sometimes used with glucono delta-lactone for sausages with a medium-fermenting rate as sucrose is the second fastest acting sugar (after dextrose).
Lactose is sugar from milk. Its makeup is composed from glucose and galactose. The supermarket variety of non-fat dry milk is over 50% lactose and its water binding qualities are high.
Fructose is sugar from fruits and honey. My horse is addicted to this stuff... (in apples).
Maltose is malt sugar made during the fermentation process of germinating barley in the brewing industry. It helps to control the sour flavor produced during the procedure. In sausage making, it is a poor choice for fermentation.
Galactose is closely related to glucose, but it is not nearly as sweet. Galactose is half lactose (milk sugar). In the human body, glucose is changed into galactose to enable the mammary glands to secrete lactose.
Raffinose is the sugar of vegetables and whole grains.
Maltodextrin is sugar produced from rice, potatoes, and corn and is used in the drinking soda industry.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon

NicolasR · Post by **NicolasR** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 21:27

Thanks CW !

I'd be better off sticking to dextrose and sugar for now, and keep on following the "methods" with great care.

I read in S. Marianski's book that adding 1% dextrose will drop ph down by a full point. So I will be very careful to check starting ph of the meat/fat mix and adjust dextrose/sugar accordingly if it's too high.

It's a very very interesting "hobby" and I guess you never stop learning !

Thanks again.

Nicolas

Chuckwagon · Post by **Chuckwagon** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 14:34

Rudy, you wrote:

That's about all I can think of right now. Hopefully CW will add his expert opinion.

I`m no expert, Rudy.

I decided to do a test batch of Landjäger sausage using this as well as my old standby, T-SPX but with the addition of GDL at 0.3% as suggested by our starter culture expert Igor.

Let`s check with Igor and see what he has to say about it.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon

Igor Duńczyk · Post by **Igor Duńczyk** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 18:37

...about being (right- or wrongfully) labled as an expert ?

...or about the use of GdL ?
That´s a usfull remedy of the category "Too much of a good thing can become a pretty awfull thing" because while GdL may help you to achieve a fast pH drop down to 5.0, too much of it will eventually also turn your long time ripened salami into something that rather resembles a piece of oak with an eerie metallic aftertaste (if you should ever find a knife sharp enough to slice through it).

But when used with subtility (like from 0,25% to 0,4% dosage) and in combination with a mildly acidifying starter culture like T-SPX, it may help those who don´t dispose over their own home build climate chamber yet. Or for items like Landjäger that calls for a rectangular shape, because the quick denaturation of the meat fibre caused by the GdL will make it relatively easier to form the sausages.

Just a few days ago I had a meeting with a local Polish sausage producer who started producing a unsmoked kabanos-type sausage processed with GdL in combination with a Sacco starter culture that primarely consists of two Staphyloccoccus along with a Listeria-killing Lactobacillus. The process does lead to a dry consistency but with a fine "knack" to it that would be hard to achieve without the GdL. Actually it´s an easy-to-make "mini-snack salami" if any of you out there should care to try.

But perhaps we should wait to hear some more from Rudy who took a shot at the lurid Landjäger with the help of 007 and his secret GdL weapon

JoeNewbie · Post by **JoeNewbie** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 22:52

Is your culture viable?
A note about keeping cultures....Test them before you use them.
I keep my cultures in -30F deep freeze. I have some that are over 5 years old and still viable......But....I ALWAYS proof a culture before I use it. I take a half a cup or so of well aerated distilled water, add a little dextrose, take a pH reading, add a little culture, and set it in a warm place. Then I test the pH after at least an hour or so. I have always seen a significant pH drop in an hour in a good viable culture.