Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

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markizschnitzel
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Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by markizschnitzel » Sun Jan 05, 2020 14:15

Hello

Just made a batch, ~100pounds/~50kg.

Sausages are similar to chorizo/hungarian.
Minced pork, 1.8% salt, no nitrates, paprika, very little garlic.

I made them yesterday, from a pig that has been butchered the day before and left to cool at ~4C (thicker muscles were higher).

I stuffed them and left them in a room at them ~8C.

Usually I then hang them in a smokehouse, wait a few days, then cold smoke and air dry.

But this year I did the slaughter much later then usually (we got a baby), so outside temperatures are cold.
It will be~3C/~37f during the day and -6C/~20f during the night.
The smokehouse has no heating. It's at best a couple degrees warmer then outside. So it's likely the sausages will freeze and thaw a few times.

How will this affect my sausages?

I do have an option to move them to a warmer smokehouse at my parents, but this is very labor intensive. I'd rather not if I don't have to.

Or I could live them in my garage (unused, no off gasing), but it has no ventilation.

Any advice?
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Re: Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by Bob K » Sun Jan 05, 2020 16:32

At 20 F with the 1.8% salt content they most likely wont freeze solid, if you are concerned the garage should provide plenty of air to dry.
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Re: Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by markizschnitzel » Sun Jan 05, 2020 17:19

Thanks!

Do I need to worry about fermentation/good bacteria in this case?
Will exposure to such temps not hinder these as well?
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Re: Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by Bob K » Sun Jan 05, 2020 17:43

If you want to ferment them and have added no culture or sugars you would need a temp of 54-61 F. What are your normal temps and procedure?
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Re: Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by markizschnitzel » Sun Jan 05, 2020 17:55

Well, I don't use cultures. I did buy them, but had no time to build fermentation chamber.

Last year I did leave the sausages in a covered box in a heated house for 2 days. They came out better then ever, but last year we also had great outside conditions so not sure if these 2 days had any beneficial impact.
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Re: Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by redzed » Sun Jan 05, 2020 18:32

Doesn't sound good. The freezing and thawing will also also affect the bind and an acceleration in water loss. 1.8% salt for dry cured products is low. And no nitrites? You might get some fermentation from the naturally occurring lactic acid bateria helped with sugar in the paprika, but you are also exposing the meat to unwanted bacteria and possible pathogens. It's really not the best way to make dry cred sausages.
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Re: Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by markizschnitzel » Sun Jan 05, 2020 18:56

Well, 1.6% - 2% is the traditional way. Determined simply by taste, since people don't have a clue about bacteria and such. 2 is a bit salty for me. I did not know that it's not safe though.
It's unscientific, but it's what everybody does in central europe, with no widely reported cases of poisoning or illness. Nor have I heard about it.
Plus, food technology agency here did some testing, and determined no health hazards, and found 1.8% consistently superior in blind taste tests.

No nitrates, nitrates are not used here. As said, I was planning on using cultures, and try with nitrates, but that would not be the same product then. And I had no time to make all the research and preparations.

So, 2 slightly conflicting diagnosis then. Same as in rl :)
I guess I could leave them in the garage for a couple of days, then transfer for cold smoking, then transfer back.
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Re: Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by redzed » Sun Jan 05, 2020 19:04

Good luck, I hope things will turn out for you. Keep us informed and post some pictures of the finished product.
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Re: Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by markizschnitzel » Sun Jan 05, 2020 19:54

So you would advise to keep them out of this cold?

Other then that, you have few other objections:
- not enough salt
- no nitrates
?

But this should only be the case if I actually do try to jumpstart fermentation by keeping sausages in a 12-16C range?
Or is it also the case when doing slow fermentation at lower temperatures?
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Re: Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by StefanS » Sun Jan 05, 2020 20:59

markizschnitzel wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 18:56
Well, 1.6% - 2% is the traditional way. Determined simply by taste, since people don't have a clue about bacteria and such. 2 is a bit salty for me. I did not know that it's not safe though.
It's unscientific, but it's what everybody does in central europe, with no widely reported cases of poisoning or illness. Nor have I heard about it.
Yup - 1.6-2.0% (of salt and nitrite combined )it is traditional way in Central Europe but in products thermally finished.
markizschnitzel wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 18:56
No nitrates, nitrates are not used here.
mostly yes - but nitrite is widely used in Central Europe
markizschnitzel wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 19:54
markizschnitzel wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 19:54
Other then that, you have few other objections:
- not enough salt
- no nitrates
But this should only be the case if I actually do try to jumpstart fermentation by keeping sausages in a 12-16C range?
Or is it also the case when doing slow fermentation at lower temperatures?
hmmm - - I'm thinking that you mismatch many things about traditional Central European kielbasa making and South European Salami/Salumi making. BTW - Lactic Acid Bacteria not fermenting in temps lower than 11*C.
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Re: Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by markizschnitzel » Sun Jan 05, 2020 21:27

StefanS wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 20:59
Yup - 1.6-2.0% (of salt and nitrite combined )it is traditional way in Central Europe but in products thermally finished.
Nope. it's for dry sausages.
E.g. here:
LINKhttp://moja-kuhinja.com/kalkulator-za-k ... basice.php

I've found many similar recipes on some hungarian, serbian, bosnian or austrian websites.

Maybe in slightly cooler regions, like northern Germany or Switzerland it's different though.
StefanS wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 20:59
mostly yes - but nitrite is widely used in Central Europe
Industrially sure. But is it the same in home sausgae making?
We do have SOME recipes that use nitrates. But very few people make them, and they just make small batches.
I am from Croatia, so mostly interact with people from Balkans or Hungary. Vast majority of people here are very against nitrates, because there are numerous media report on toxicity, so people are convinced they are toxic. I am not one of those, but I also don't see a reason to change a recipe that works and has been working for 100+ years.

StefanS wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 20:59
hmmm - - I'm thinking that you mismatch many things about traditional Central European kielbasa making and South European Salami/Salumi making. BTW - Lactic Acid Bacteria not fermenting in temps lower than 11*C.
As still a newbie, I only know that nothern sausages are more acidic? While Croatia is both central european climate, and also mediterranean. So our meat products do mix some things. Though, as I said, it has been working quite well. nitrates are absolutely not used in my region, as we do not have any rock salt mines that contain nitrates, so it's not traditionally used. It's just either plain sea salt form adriatic or rock salt from Tuzla in bosnia and herzegovina.



But the RL of how it's made would sound even scarier for you guys. Maybe. Dunno.
- pig is slaughtered
- it's butchered right away
- it's minced right after that
- sausages are made
- it's hung in smokehouse right after that to drain
- it's cold smoked in the next 2-4 days for the first time, then a few times more every second day

So between slaughter and until sausages are made and hung it's only ~5h difference. Meat is still warm when it's minced and stuffed.


It's dried in mostly brick smokehouses ~1.5m x 1.5m x 4m in size, with few ventilation holes.
And as said, it mostly turns out ok, sometimes really great, sometimes there is case hardening. It's dependant on outside conditions, temperature and humidity. But not once have I heard of the case of anyone getting poisoning.
I am not saying it can't happen, obviously, it can, but it's not. There are far more cases of food poisoning at restaurants.


My only dilemma here is should I take the extra effort and move the freshly made sausages at my parents smokehous, which is built into the house, so it's by a few degrees warmer, it would stay in the range of 3-12C, as measured, or to keep them in my smokehouse, where they will likely slightly freeze and thaw multiple times in the next 10 days.
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Re: Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by redzed » Mon Jan 06, 2020 16:24

Interesting. And yes that is how sausages used to be made when the whole carcass was not chilled but processed right after slaughter. The sausages were made with salt only. There are such recipes on the Polish WD site. Unfortunately I have no first hand experience or knowledge about that.

To answer your last question, the freeze-thaw scenario will ruin your sausage. The protein cells will be damaged and you will have a crumbly sausage with very little flavour. Best thing to do is to keep it at a low temp for a fer days and then dry in a cool environment, 8-15C.
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Re: Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by markizschnitzel » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:45

Thanks red!

I decided I will be smoking sausages in the smokehouse, then moving them back to the garage.
Then after smoking I'll move them to the warmer smokehouse at my parents.

What caused my confusion in the 1st place was my wifes uncle who works in meat processing factory in germany who said it's no problem if it freezes. But they likely work with products that are not dried, but hot smoked.
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Re: Unfavourable outside conditions for drying sausages?

Post by StefanS » Tue Jan 07, 2020 16:14

:D
markizschnitzel wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 21:27
So between slaughter and until sausages are made and hung it's only ~5h difference. Meat is still warm when it's minced and stuffed.
it is making big difference - different pH, different water capacity, different bacterial count. If i remember correctly similar procedures where used in my country 50-60 years ago (without refrigerators) and in special unexpected events like funerals/wakes in villages.
BTW - sea salt contain more nitrites than mined salt (mostly). And Croatia (Balkans) it is south Europe (from my point of view) more than Central Europe :D
Can you smoke during a night then rest in smoker during day - that way temperatures will work maybe.....
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