Drying in basement no chamber

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Albertaed
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Drying in basement no chamber

Post by Albertaed » Sat Dec 19, 2020 17:38

I have a fridge drying chamber already in use so I’m going to give the basement a go. I have setup a small area where I can control the humidity with a humidifier but the temp is only controlled by opening and closing a window. Temp control usually isn’t an issue because it gets to be -20C in the winter. The problem is we are about to have above average temps and I’m afraid it might get above 60F down there. How high is too high? I normally run RH at 80% will this keep case hardening under control or should I go higher.
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by redzed » Sat Dec 19, 2020 23:24

If you wish to be precise and do what meat science dictates, adjust your RH to be approximately 10 points below the water activity level. But if you are like me and and don't want to spend $4,000 on a water activity meter, aim to keep tour humidity in the 75-80% range.
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by Scogar » Tue Feb 02, 2021 02:21

I considered starting a new topic, but before I did I searched for recent topics that addressed my issues. This one is the same issues but a diffferent meat. So I have an equilibrium curing pancetta going. I am about ready to pull it and let it dry. I am not rolling it but plan to keep it flat, skin is on still. I can pull it out of the refrigerator and dry it in the basement which is around 60° F and about 40-50% humidity as read from a Willhi WH8040 Humidity Controller OR I can put it in a dedicated cooler that I can adjust the temp to whatever I want but currently sits at about 90% humidity and I may have trouble keeping humidity low.

Is the cellar temp and humidity ok? In the grand scheme of things it may be harder for me to adjust a room than it would to take a day, clean the cooler out from storing my kielbasa, adjust the temp and throttle the door to reach the right humidity

I don't want to lose this pancetta by doing something super stupid in the next few days . I like the cellar but fear that the humidity just might be too low. Any advice on what humidity is too high or too low?
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by redzed » Tue Feb 02, 2021 08:05

Bacon has a lot of fat so it is quite forgiving as to the humidity. However, 60 degrees is right at the very top of acceptable drying temps and 40 -50 humidity is a little low, especially during the early stages. I would expect that the meat side of the slab will dry fast and a hard crust will form. It would probably do much better if you rolled it.
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by Albertaed » Tue Feb 02, 2021 15:06

I scrapped by basement chamber. Although it gets quite cold here (-20C right now) we also get huge swings to +8C for extended periods and it’s always bone dry. For a few bucks I step up another chamber with consistent results and no headaches.
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by Scogar » Tue Feb 02, 2021 15:13

I think I'm going to dial the chamber in to about 50F and just work with the humidity. If I turn it off today and clean it out with some bleach water and leave it open for the day to dry it will drop to cellar ambient H and T. Once I put the pancetta in, I'll see where the humidity lands and I'll try for something in the 70% range for awhile.

Hey just keeping the last run of sausages in there (granted it was four kilos of fresh) - it was in the 90% range, so I am hoping this is manageable. Good thing about equilibrium cure is I have a few years to work with ;-)
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by Indaswamp » Tue Feb 02, 2021 15:39

redzed wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 23:24
If you wish to be precise and do what meat science dictates, adjust your RH to be approximately 10 points below the water activity level. But if you are like me and and don't want to spend $4,000 on a water activity meter, aim to keep tour humidity in the 75-80% range.
This brings up a question I have.. Reading through The Art of Making Fermented Sausages by the Marianski Bros., on page 26 at the bottom...
For controlled drying humidity should lag the sausage Aw from 0.2-0.5, 0.3 being the average.

Example sausage Aw 0.95, humidity 92%, sausage Aw 0.92, humidity 89%. sausage Aw 0.89, humidity 0.86% etc.
So that is 3 points below Aw. Is this correct? or did the Marianski Bros. make a mistake? On average, what would the Aw be of a salami be with 30% fat and 2.55% salt upon reaching 30% weight loss?
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by Butterbean » Tue Feb 02, 2021 15:57

Scogar, regarding your basement, the temp sounds ideal and I do something similar as my "kitchen" is a converted bay in a barn with no heat. Though I have a chamber, I rarely use it because I find it easier to dry things in the kitchen rather than in the chamber. IMO, the chamber is too confined and can swing in different directions so quickly due to the confined space whereas the kitchen is big and the temp and humidity swings aren't so drastic. Concerning your humidity, your floor - if concrete - needs to be sealed because raw concrete is a moisture sink and will suck moisture from the air quickly. I sealed my floor and I keep a constant humidity during the winter months of 55-70% depending on the temperature. What I found was interesting is the humidity will fluctuate with the temperature so if the temperature rises to say 65 degrees the humidity will rise to 70 or better so during periods where the meats are drying at a faster rate due to temp the humidity is automatically increases which has reduced my problems with case hardening.

The down side to my setup is I can only make fermented meats in the fall and winter months unless I crank up the chamber. Another drawback is white mold. Given enough time, I get that on everything whether I want it or not but I haven't seen any weird colored native molds in years.

Also it should be added that I don't make much fermented sausages because we just don't eat stuff like that often so my fermented sausages, though good IMO, surely aren't of the quality that other members on the board make.....but mine are better than the stuff you can buy at Walmart so at least I have that going for me.

If you are still interested in trying this method seal your floor if it isn't already sealed and get a couple of those humidity and temp monitors from the garden center and take notes of what your conditions are through the fall and winter months. You might find this to be much more easy and forgiving than using a chamber.
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by Butterbean » Tue Feb 02, 2021 16:12

Indaswamp wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 15:39
redzed wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 23:24
If you wish to be precise and do what meat science dictates, adjust your RH to be approximately 10 points below the water activity level. But if you are like me and and don't want to spend $4,000 on a water activity meter, aim to keep tour humidity in the 75-80% range.
This brings up a question I have.. Reading through The Art of Making Fermented Sausages by the Marianski Bros., on page 26 at the bottom...
For controlled drying humidity should lag the sausage Aw from 0.2-0.5, 0.3 being the average.

Example sausage Aw 0.95, humidity 92%, sausage Aw 0.92, humidity 89%. sausage Aw 0.89, humidity 0.86% etc.
So that is 3 points below Aw. Is this correct? or did the Marianski Bros. make a mistake? On average, what would the Aw be of a salami be with 30% fat and 2.55% salt upon reaching 30% weight loss?
I think what they are saying is that after the meat has finished drying and become shelf stable the available water will fluctuate as the humidity fluctuates. An example of this would be an open bag of potato chips left out over night. The aw might be .4 when the bag is first opened but by morning if the humidity is 80% they will be .77. Keep in mind the water activity of a non-dried non finished product will be off the charts of the meter until it dries down and to answer your last question 999,999 times out of a million the product will be good at 30% weight loss. (I posted an experiment with some notes on this some time back and like magic 30% was always well within your goal ... I even found a few times it was even sooner so I think the 30% is a little on the conservative side)

BTW - if anyone on the board's curiosity is getting the best of them and they would like to know what their aw is I'd be happy to test it for you free of charge. You'll just need to vac-seal a small stick of your product and mail it to me. Granted a whole stick would be better for my gullet but I don't need but a 1-2" piece would be more than plenty to test.
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by Indaswamp » Tue Feb 02, 2021 16:36

I did read that old thread with your note on drying. If I remember correct, your mince had 14% fat content, so would contain more water in the batter than a higher fat mix like 70/30. On average, the Aw should be higher at 30% with less fat content.

I would be curious to know the results of your experiment with a higher fat ratio closer to 70/30.

One note I found in my research, though I can't remember the paper I saw it in on science direct (should have bookmarked it) is that a 72/28 lean to fat mix has 55.57grams of water per 100 grams of mince.
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by Scogar » Tue Feb 02, 2021 16:41

Thanks Butterbean. My shop floor is sealed whereas the darker room that I measured is not. I may take a measurement there and see if I can't just block the light a little better. The shop is a bit cooler too as it opens to the outside. I may be doing musical chairs with my first pancetta, but I think I can do it.

I do want to get to the fermented and dried stuff as well, but I suspect I am limited there until I choose to dial the chamber in
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by Butterbean » Tue Feb 02, 2021 17:35

Indaswamp wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 16:36
I did read that old thread with your note on drying. If I remember correct, your mince had 14% fat content, so would contain more water in the batter than a higher fat mix like 70/30. On average, the Aw should be higher at 30% with less fat content.

I would be curious to know the results of your experiment with a higher fat ratio closer to 70/30.

One note I found in my research, though I can't remember the paper I saw it in on science direct (should have bookmarked it) is that a 72/28 lean to fat mix has 55.57grams of water per 100 grams of mince.
So far, everything I've tested has been "safe" at 30% - often even higher. Its not so much the amount of water in a product but the water that is available and since fat doesn't absorb salt or sugars well lean leaner meats will have a higher concentration of salt or sugar and will bind the water. (Granted, you wouldn't want to be adding water to a fermented product because this would skew things)

What I found interesting is how moist something can appear to be yet still be shelf stable. An extreme example is jelly which has an aw of around 0.70 which if you dried your meat to this point it would be as tough as shoe leather.

I've since lost the link but there was a food scientist in at Iowa State I believe who argued against mandating the use of aW because it was an unnecessary expense on producers. He had a solid argument against forcing people to buy these machines but the powers that be showed an extreme case where it did not measure a product accurately and that one case was all they needed to force this regulation and after this regulation was mandated the price of these meters went from a couple hundred dollars the thousands.

Though I believe it unnecessary to measure the aw when making traditional products as long as you don't get stupid and add a lot of liquids to the product, I think its pretty neat in that you can experiment with things without concerning yourself with weight loss. I've done some experiments with jerky for instance and it was amazing how moist a product I can make and it still be shelf stable. Of course, there is always mold but that is a different subject.
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by Indaswamp » Tue Feb 02, 2021 17:43

Thanks for the info Butterbean.
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by Butterbean » Tue Feb 02, 2021 17:46

Scogar wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 16:41
Thanks Butterbean. My shop floor is sealed whereas the darker room that I measured is not. I may take a measurement there and see if I can't just block the light a little better. The shop is a bit cooler too as it opens to the outside. I may be doing musical chairs with my first pancetta, but I think I can do it.

I do want to get to the fermented and dried stuff as well, but I suspect I am limited there until I choose to dial the chamber in
You may be surprised at what you can do. I wish I had a cellar but here I'd end up with a swimming pool. I have a friend who makes over a thousand pounds of soppressata each year in his basement. He's an Italian and his method is much cruder than what I do but he makes a pretty good product. They start it in the fall and just stuff and hang the meat in the basement in the fall months watching the temps. He'll wet the floor sometimes and open the door from time to time. He's the one who warned me about the concrete because the floor used to be dirt till they poured concrete and ran into problems with humidity but sealing it fixed it.

I think it highly possible for you to find a way to use your basement. I really think a larger room is more user friendly than a confined space but the only drawback is being limited by the season.
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Re: Drying in basement no chamber

Post by StefanS » Tue Feb 02, 2021 22:07

Indaswamp - it looks like you are trying dig deeper into some knowledge in processes during making dry matured meats. It is not easy subject for many reasons. In post above you have asked about Aw (Activity of water). So below is my own explanation of that term (plus some answers for your questions). Sorry for grammar etc.. Activity of water( or IMO - ability of water), is term used by researchers (they call them selves - very smart people) to describe - how much free water is in product available for use by microorganisms, molds, yeasts, insects, even humans. But you can ask - ok if this is so what it means that meat contain around 70-75 % of water? - Piece of meat have around 70-75 % of water, plus minerals plus proteins etc.. but that water isn't 100% available to completely dry out, or bacteria can use it to spoil that piece, or your hand can not squeeze it to drink that moisture. In another words - if you take 1 liter pure water (no minerals, no impurities) it means that 100% of that water can be used and is unbound. It is equal Aw -1.00. Very fresh lean pork contain around Aw 0.98, but if you add 25g/kg of salt - it wiil lower that Aw to 0.97. More salt - lower to 0.96
Of course more salt will lower even more but it will not consumed by humans (salted pork, salted herrings,) because level of salt solution. In Marianski's papers you can see chart about level of Aw and undesirable organisms growing.
But is there any correlation between weight loss and Aw ? Yes and Not. Without very expensive Aw meters we are not able to give exact numbers. There are some factors influencing that (mentioned by you -fat, or size of particles, or diameter of casing). Generally 30% weight loss means that Aw is 0.90-.088 . Fat content is important but isn't mean that is limiting factor (not in 15 or 30% content). Returning to your concern about -
Indaswamp wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 15:39
redzed wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 23:24
If you wish to be precise and do what meat science dictates, adjust your RH to be approximately 10 points below the water activity level. But if you are like me and and don't want to spend $4,000 on a water activity meter, aim to keep tour humidity in the 75-80% range.
This brings up a question I have.. Reading through The Art of Making Fermented Sausages by the Marianski Bros., on page 26 at the bottom...
For controlled drying humidity should lag the sausage Aw from 0.2-0.5, 0.3 being the average.

Example sausage Aw 0.95, humidity 92%, sausage Aw 0.92, humidity 89%. sausage Aw 0.89, humidity 0.86% etc.
So that is 3 points below Aw. Is this correct? or did the Marianski Bros. make a mistake? On average, what would the Aw be of a salami be with 30% fat and 2.55% salt upon reaching 30% weight loss?
Usually first couple days (fermenting room) - commercial gurus and "smart people" saying that RH humidity in salami fermenting room cannot be lower that 0.2 -0.5 points lower than Aw. In other words - if fresh salami has Aw 0.96 that mean RH in that room should be 94-91% RH. (depend on diameter).
In whole muscle process or very large salami diameter - first couple days can be 86 %RH ( 10 digits difference between Aw and RH, more forgivable ). Because we do not have a comfort of making whole room/chamber of one kind of product then we have to choose some values of temperature, humidity and air movements as compromise between green staff and matured, between salamis (different diameters, and whole muscle pieces (different sizes).
There is some relations (physics, chemistry, bio-chemistry) between humidity, Aw, osmosis, condensation, evaporation and process of fermenting and maturing. These first few days it is mostly about avoiding what we are call - dry ring.
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