Binder Question

User avatar
Jarhead
User
User
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 14:52
Location: S/W Missouri

Binder Question

Post by Jarhead » Sat Aug 20, 2011 04:14

I am making some peppered beef sticks this weekend. The recipe that I have calls for 1/2 C flavor binder for 10# ground meat. (80/20)
I ordered some and it didn't come in today.
Can I get by without it or is there a substitute or something else in place of it?
Thanks.
"Gunny"
FEC-100, 22" & 18" WSM, MB Gasser, UDS, A-Maze-N Tube Smoker
User avatar
Chuckwagon
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 4494
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
Location: Rocky Mountains

Post by Chuckwagon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 09:45

Hi Gunny,
By "flavor binder", are you referring to the "Special Meat Binder" from Butcher-Packer? If so, you should be aware that it is one of the phosphates and is surrounded in controversy as phosphates are actually able to open the structure of a protein, helping it hold more water than any other "binder". Most countries permit only 0.5% (5 grams) per kilogram of meat.
If you have a supply of soy protein concentrate on hand, (not to be confused with soy protein isolate which is stronger and more expensive), you might consider adding one cup to ten pounds of meat. Soy protein should be kept beneath 5% as any more than that can affect the taste of the sausage and make it taste "beany". Another option is "dairyfine" non-fat dry milk, available from dairies. (Not the stuff you get in a box at your grocers containing 50% lactose and only 30% protein). Good luck.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
User avatar
Jarhead
User
User
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 14:52
Location: S/W Missouri

Post by Jarhead » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:04

CW, thanks for the reply.
Yes that is what I was referring to.
I don't have any of those things. I'll see what I can find around here. Probably not much in these 1 horse towns. :wink:
Could it be made without it or should I change recipes? Do you have one?
"Gunny"
FEC-100, 22" & 18" WSM, MB Gasser, UDS, A-Maze-N Tube Smoker
User avatar
Chuckwagon
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 4494
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
Location: Rocky Mountains

Post by Chuckwagon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 21:43

Gunny, good ol' Polish "Kabanosy" is made without binders and it's pretty good stuff! Take a look at Stan's recipe at this link: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=4793
There are many people who like using the powdered milk from a grocery store although it's full of sugar - too much for me I'm afraid... but I'm just saying some use it - others don't. I'm not recommending it. If it were up to me, I'd make Stan's kabanosy while waiting for your order of "binder". Who knows, you just might like it better.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
crustyo44
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 1089
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2011 06:21
Location: Brisbane

Post by crustyo44 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 03:02

Hi CW,
Man, you got me all mixed up now with all that talk about "dairyfine non fat dry milk" and "powdered milk" from the grocery store.
I was going to use skim milk powder as a binder for my next projects this coming weekend.
Can you PLEASE tell an old beginner what the exact difference is and what/how to use it?
Thank you,
Best Regards,
Jan,
Brisbane.
User avatar
Jarhead
User
User
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 14:52
Location: S/W Missouri

Post by Jarhead » Mon Aug 22, 2011 07:35

Thanks for the link and the advice CW.
I had beef, not pork, so I didn't make that one. I ended up making a Cajun Snack Stick. It turned out pretty good, at least it was edible.
I had some 22 mm collagen casings on hand, so I used them. I'm used to a natural casing, so I didn't care for the collagen.
Also, wish I had some Encapsulated Citric Acid to add to it. With those changes mentioned, it should be a better stick.

crustyo44, I'm also curious on your question.
"Gunny"
FEC-100, 22" & 18" WSM, MB Gasser, UDS, A-Maze-N Tube Smoker
User avatar
Chuckwagon
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 4494
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
Location: Rocky Mountains

Post by Chuckwagon » Tue Aug 23, 2011 06:08

Hi Guys!
Crusty wrote:
Can you PLEASE tell an old beginner what the exact difference is and what/how to use it?
Sure... happy to Crusty. Thanks for asking. Today, soy protein is used in sausage making as a binder - not to be confused as a filler. As comminuted meat and fat particles are covered with the fine powder (having the consistency of corn starch), soy protein prevents fats from amalgamating and its water-holding ability only increases the firmness of a meat product. The amount added should not exceed 2-1/2% as the flavor of sausage becomes altered, most people calling it "beany" tasting.

Soy protein has been around longer than most people think. In 1936 it was developed for use in fire extinguishers by the company that eventually became Kidde. The U.S. Navy called the foam product "bean soup" and used it to fight fires aboard ships throughout WWII as it was ideal for putting out gas and oil fires on aircraft carriers. In 1958, the Glidden Paint Company further tested the product and was the first to produce edible soy protein isolate in 1959. However, it wasn`t until 1987 that the product became a leading food additive as defatted soy flour was developed by a corporation named PTI. Later, DuPont Chemical (who owned Ralston-Purina), joined with General Mills creating the first marketed food-grade soy protein isolate. Not to be confused with soy protein concentrate or soy protein flour, the product known as soy protein isolate contains more than 90% protein and no other added ingredients. It is much stronger and more expensive than other soy protein powders. It binds 5 parts of water and is used in the food industry in other applications than in sausage making.

Soy protein concentrate is produced by immobilizing soy globulin proteins while allowing soluble carbohydrates to be leached from the defatted flakes along with whey and salts. With these removed, soy protein flour remains. Now, there is a lot of technical saddle-bum science going on to further create edible soy protein concentrate. It involves the removal of specific aqueous acids in something called the isoelectric zone of minimum protein solubility :shock: . And no kidding... it is achieved by the use of... (ta da)... alcohol! :mrgreen: When the science settles down, the consumer winds up with soy protein concentrate at about 70% protein... with other additives, including ash and fiber. :shock: Shucks, there`s even 1% oil in the stuff. It binds 4 part of water and it takes one ton of defatted soybean flour to make 1653 pounds of soy protein concentrate. The list of the uses for soy protein concentrate in every industry you can imagine today is as long as Uwanna`s Allysandra Salami! :wink:

In 1984, three years before "defatted soy flour" was developed by PTI, Rytek Kutas (referring to non-fat dry milk) wrote on page 159 of his "revised edition" book, "If you are going to use a non-fat dry milk for a binder, your local dairy is usually the only place you can buy it today. The milk has to be a very fine powder and not the granules used for making milk at home. Better still, it should have the consistency of corn starch."

Although it does not have quite the binding power of soy protein, non-fat dry milk powder is half lactose (sugar) and is often used in making fermented type "dry-cured" sausages such as salami and pepperoni. Why? It is ideal in supplying essential sugar to the lactic acid producing bacteria pediococcus acidilactici and lactobacillus curvatus. Although it is 35% protein, it is also known for improving the taste of low-fat sausages.

I have heard of people buying grocery-store dry milk powder granules and pulverizing them inside a blender or food processor for use in prep-cooked-type sausages and semi-dry cured sausages. Many folks say they are not able to tell the difference. Personally, I`m not able to assess it because I am terribly allergic to lactose. However, you may choose it over soy protein. I just count myself lucky to be living in a time when modern science has developed a refined soy protein concentrate.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
User avatar
Jarhead
User
User
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 14:52
Location: S/W Missouri

Post by Jarhead » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:20

Thanks CW, lots of info there. Give your fingers a rest and grab a cold barley pop.
Now, I consider myself ed-u-micated. :wink:
"Gunny"
FEC-100, 22" & 18" WSM, MB Gasser, UDS, A-Maze-N Tube Smoker
User avatar
Chuckwagon
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 4494
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
Location: Rocky Mountains

Post by Chuckwagon » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:59

Jarhead wrote:
grab a cold barley pop
Hey Gunny, is that something like, "Colorado Kool-Aid"? :lol:
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
User avatar
Jarhead
User
User
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 14:52
Location: S/W Missouri

Post by Jarhead » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:04

Chuckwagon wrote:Jarhead wrote:
grab a cold barley pop
Hey Gunny, is that something like, "Colorado Kool-Aid"? :lol:
Naw, I like that St Louis Spring Water. :cool:
"Gunny"
FEC-100, 22" & 18" WSM, MB Gasser, UDS, A-Maze-N Tube Smoker
crustyo44
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 1089
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2011 06:21
Location: Brisbane

Post by crustyo44 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 00:08

Hi CW,
Thank you for all that information. Lots of experimenting coming up, for this poor bastard anyway!!!!!!!!
Best Regards,
Jan.
Brisbane.
crustyo44
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 1089
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2011 06:21
Location: Brisbane

Post by crustyo44 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 02:30

Hi CW,
Back again with this Soy question. A mate of mine can purchase SOY ISOLATE but after reading what you wrote, this is different than Soy Protein Concentrate. I am stuffed again!!!!!
After looking on the net, I couldn't help but laugh as it said that this Soy Isolate is also used for male enhancement.
Well, umm yes, at least I am on the proper sausage forum for advise.
Hopefully you can shed some light on this.
Best Regards,
Jan.
Brisbane.
User avatar
Jarhead
User
User
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 14:52
Location: S/W Missouri

Post by Jarhead » Wed Sep 21, 2011 03:07

Jan, I'm laughing so hard, I hope I can see to type this.
Does that mean you can pulverize Viagra and use it for a binder? :roll:
BTW, I got the special meat binder in 3 days after it was supposed to be here. :mad:
Sorry, I know, "Family Friendly" :wink:
"Gunny"
FEC-100, 22" & 18" WSM, MB Gasser, UDS, A-Maze-N Tube Smoker
User avatar
Chuckwagon
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 4494
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
Location: Rocky Mountains

Post by Chuckwagon » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:58

Crusty wrote:
After looking on the net, I couldn't help but laugh as it said that this Soy Isolate is also used for male enhancement. Well, umm yes, at least I am on the proper sausage forum for advise. Hopefully you can shed some light on this.
Crusty ol` bud,
I wouldn`t touch this subject with a ten foot pole if it belonged to Uwanna and Patricia Arquette was holding it! :shock: However... (gulp)... I can try to explain a little more about soy protein isolate as opposed to soy protein concentrate.

Soy protein isolate contains at least 90% protein and no other ingredients. It is much stronger and more expensive. (It can bind 5 parts of water). In sausage, the recommended amount of soy protein isolate (as well as soy protein concentrate AND non-fat dry milk) is only 1% - 3% (10 - 30 g/kg). I would recommend sticking with the concentrate for sausage making for several reasons. It is the ideal nutrient for lactobacilli and pediococci and it is affordable.

Crumbling Hamburgers?

Have you ever wondered why the burgers down at "Al`s Malt Shop" always keep their shape as well as their juices? And just where does that particular special flavor come from? Whenever many people make a burger at home, it crumbles and shrinks and the juices remain upon the griddle as the burger is removed from the heat. The secret for making the best burgers is the addition of the natural "binding" power of soy protein concentrate. The product is natural and, as its name implies, it is simply concentrated soy bean protein. Soy protein binds comminuted (ground) meat together, and for that reason, it helps in retaining its natural juices. This of course, keeps it from shrinking.

It has one shortcoming only - the meat becomes a little more difficult to "sear" or brown while cooking. However, adding a little powdered dextrose or corn syrup solids, adding their own flavors as well, easily solves this problem. Please note these products are also "natural" and used in most commercial sausage kitchens today. Don`t be hesitant to use these products in your cooking as they are completely safe and contain no additives, preservatives, or foreign chemicals. Powdered dextrose is only 70% sweet as sugar and its weight forces itself into the cells of the meat more readily than other types of sugars, for complete distribution.

Years ago, the best burgers were charred outside and barely pink inside. Today, we must protect our guests against possible salmonella, listeria, e-coli, and a host of other bacteria, by cooking the burgers until their inside temperatures register 150 F. or thereabouts, allowing the "carryover" to finish bringing it up to a preferred temperature. Burgers are "medium" at this point. Here`s a good recipe for a tasty non-shrinkin` burger that won`t fall apart on you:

Chuckwagon`s "Hip Shot" Hamburgers

2 lbs. pork shoulder
3 lbs beef chuck
1 tblspn. powdered dextrose
3 tblspns. soy protein concentrate
1-1/2 tblspns. un-iodized salt
1 tblspn. freshly ground black pepper
1/2 tspn. coriander
1/2 tspn. nutmeg
1/2 cup ice cold whole milk

Trim the shoulder and chuck and cut it into inch squares. Grind the nearly-frozen meat with its fat through a 3/8" plate. Mix all the other ingredients into the meat and distribute them thoroughly as you develop the actin and myocin. When pulled apart, the meat should be slightly sticky with soft peaks. Be careful not to over-mix the meat. Form 1/2 pound patties, flattening them evenly with a rolling pin. If you prefer burgers "griddle-fried in smoke", simply place your portable griddle (or cast iron black skillet) on top of the grilling bars of your gas or charcoal grill using plenty of dampened hickory or other hardwood to provide the smudge. Try apple, mesquite, alder, and oak. Don`t even think about pressing the patties down while they`re cooking! Put them on the griddle and allow them to sear before turning them over. You should only have to turn them once.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
Last edited by Chuckwagon on Fri Oct 04, 2013 09:47, edited 2 times in total.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
User avatar
JerBear
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 05:01
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:

Post by JerBear » Wed Sep 21, 2011 20:21

I was having lots and lots of issues with texture in my sausages and tried various ways of cooking and preparing them and was about to give up. Loved the flavor, nasty texture. Anyway I decided to drop a couple bucks and try out the Special Meat Binder (phosphate) from Butcher Packer and don't know if I'll ever go back. I use it pretty much at the rate Chuckwagon mentions above (I go 2.36 g per 1 # sausage base).

Some of the bigger sausage companies use the phosphate as a way for them to add more liquid filler and extend the costly meat/fat, I just use it as an insurance policy and found it does an amazing job! No more thinking I was eating an eraser, much much more moisture stays inside the sausage so lots more moisture. Lots more forgiving during cooking (not that you shouldn't still be careful).
Post Reply