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Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 15:25
by IdaKraut
Thanks for all the positive replies. I appreciate them.

Ursula, I think Chuckwagon (or others) could probably recommend good substitutions for the ingredients you mentioned. I personally don't like the "beany" taste of soy protein concentrate.

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 20:57
by crustyo44
Hi Ursula,
The ingredients you mentioned can be left out as CW mentions, they are not critical.
Trehalose can be replaced by dextrose according to Rudy and I would use skim milk powder from Woolies or the soy protein you have on hand.
If you would like to try some STPP ( Sodium Tripolyphosphate) I can mail you some.
The useage is 2 % per kilo. Just email me.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 01:07
by JerBear
crustyo44 wrote:If you would like to try some STPP ( Sodium Tripolyphosphate) I can mail you some. The useage is 2 % per kilo.
That percentage doesn't look quite right. If a percentage it would be independent of the quantity of the meat. I get my TPS from Butcher&Packer and they prescribe a usage of 2 oz for 25 lbs of meat which translates to 0.5% which I believe is the legal max. I've found that at that rate sausages can get downright rubbery and bouncy and typically use closer to 0.22%.

I also recently ran into a couple reps from Ajinomoto and got to talking about various binders and they recommended that when using TPS to dissolve it in liquid, add it to the meat and mix it in before adding salt. We didn't have enough time to get into the details of they why other than it might affect the TPS' ability to do it's job.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 02:20
by crustyo44
I was given a sample jar of this STTP by a Butcher Supply business here locally. They said to use only 2% per kg. I haven't used it yet as I don't like all these additives but I will double check with them now.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 02:23
by ssorllih
There are a couple of anomalies in the ingredient list that could be typos or math errors. I would suggest that contacting Rudy directly for clarification when you have a question about this before starting a batch. I have no doubt that he measured carefully and correctly for the making. It is very easy to lose a "0" to the right of the decimal point. or even to lose a decimal point.

Phosphates and Poly Ps

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 06:58
by Chuckwagon
Hi folks,
This controversial subject has been rolling around for some time now. There is no getting around it... phosphates hold in moisture. It's even more effective than soy protein. However, I'm not yet convinced that it is safe to use without question and I began studying phosphates in meat in 1999. Here is just one reason I don't use it:

In April 1999, a group of doctors at the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow, published their findings after a study of phosphates (commonly called PolyPs) and their interaction at the cellular level. Their findings were as follows:

The review analyzes the results of recent studies on the biochemistry of high-molecular inorganic poly-phosphates (PolyPs). The data obtained lead to the following main conclusions. PolyPs are polyfunctional compounds. The main role of PolyPs is their participation in the regulation of metabolism both at the genetic and metabolic levels. Among the functions of PolyPs known at present, the most important are the following: phosphate and energy storage; regulation of the levels of ATP and other nucleotide and nucleoside-containing coenzymes; participation in the regulation of homeostasis and storage of inorganic cations and other positively charged solutes in an osmotically inert form; participation in membrane transport processes mediated by poly-β-Ca2+-hydroxybutyrate complexes; participation in the formation and functions of cell surface structures; control of gene activity; and regulation of activities of the enzymes and enzyme assemblies involved in the metabolism of nucleic acids and other acid biopolymers. However, the functions of PolyPs vary among organisms of different evolutionary levels. The metabolism and functions of PolyPs in each cellular compartment of procaryotes (cell wall, plasma membrane, cytosol) and eucaryotes (nuclei, vacuoles, mitochondria, plasma membrane, cell wall, mitochondria, cytosol) are unique. The synthesis and degradation of PolyPs in the organelles of eucaryotic cells are possibly mediated by different sets of enzymes. This is consistent with of the endosymbiotic hypothesis of eucaryotic cell origin. Some aspects of the biochemistry of high-molecular PolyPs are considered to be of great significance to the approach to biotechnological, ecological and medical problems.
(Igor Kulaev, Vladimir Vagabov and Tatiana Kulakovskaya, G.K. Skryabin Institute of Biochemistry and Physiology of Microorganisms, Russian Academy of Sciences. Source: New aspects of inorganic polyphosphate metabolism and function - April 1999 Link: http://www.sciencedirect....3d&searchtype=a )

On the other hand, soy protein is just that! Soy protein concentrate - an organic product made from soy beans and used to bind meat particles and retain moisture. It should not to be confused as a filler, and of course there are limits governing its use, just as there are limits with all other things. The amount added should not exceed 2-1/2% as the flavor of sausage becomes altered, most people calling it "beany" tasting. As comminuted meat and fat particles are covered with the fine powder (having the consistency of corn starch), soy protein keep fats from amalgamating and its water-holding ability only increases the firmness of a meat product.

Best Wishes,

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 07:26
by crustyo44
Before I actually got my hands on Soy Protein, I used just plain old skim milk powder, sold here in every grocery store.
I was advised by Big Guy to use it and I have never regretted any of his advise ever.
Now I have Soy Protein Concentrate 70% which I used with good results and Soy Isolate, which I have never used. The Soy Isolate and this STPP Phosphate was a gift by a keen distributor to the meat industry here.
I probably will never use Phosphate on a regular basis, just as trial maybe.

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:10
by bearspice
Sorry to activate an old thread, but I'm new and would like to try this recipe - it sounds very good.

My question is about the Ground Mustard. Does this mean ground mustard seeds (which I can do myself at home) or the dry mustard powder like Keens?

I'm also leaving out anything chemical-sounding. Especially the MSG, which makes me go off like a frog in a sock :???: . I will concede to using the Cure #1, in a small test batch, and trying that to see if I have a reaction to cure as well. I hope I don't because that means long-term storage of my products is a no-no from what I've read.

Also, just a distinction between Wiener and Hot Dog. Are they the same (I probably should search the forum before asking this.. I might do it anyway). From my understanding, a wiener is a vienna sausage, which morphed into the hot-dog. Can the two be used interchangeably, or should I be looking for a Nathan's Hot Dog clone for a completely accurate Coney Dog re-creation?

Thanks for your patience !!

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:39
by el Ducko
bearspice wrote:I'm also leaving out anything chemical-sounding...I will concede to using the Cure #1, in a small test batch, and trying that to see if I have a reaction to cure as well. I hope I don't because that means long-term storage of my products is a no-no from what I've read.
Good comments and questions, Frog., Rob. [The grandkids are gonna LOVE that item!]

I would caution you to read up on nitrite a bit by poking around in this forum, or in some of the excellent references that the guys cite. First, it's mostly salt (only 6.25% sodium nitrite, for the USA). Second, it's for prevention of bacterial "nasties" growing if your sausage spends prolonged periods in the temperature "danger zone" between 40 and about 150 degrees F (4.5 to 60 degrees C). If you refrigerate your sausage, or else cook it right away ("fresh" sausage), you won't have that problem, and can leave out the nitrite. Dry-cured or fermented sausages are another item, and will require the use of "cure #2" (which also contains sodium nitrate, to produce nitrite slowly). ...but we're getting way ahead of the game, here. Do some reading. You'll enjoy it, and pick up some great tips on how to do stuff.

I just put together a batch of traditional Frankfurters last night, and will be smoking them today. For that reason, I used 150 ppm of nitrite in mine. I'm too young to die, especially of botulism! ...can't answer whether they're true Frankfurters, and to be honest, I've been to Frankfurt many times but have yet to eat anything like that, there, but who cares- - they're good, and these ought to be great because they're homemade from quality ingredients.

UhOh! I forgot to add the frog and sock! (I bet most dirty socks would benefit from a dose of nitrite. ??)
P.S. Do a "search" on nitrite, in the forum. There are many good posts. See especially Chuckwagon's bacterial explanations. ...real eye-openers!

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 15:50
by bearspice
OK, I would like to smoke some stuff, so looks like I might use some #1 to be sure. The version I've found over here is 11%

That means I should be able to use about half the listed quantity of kwikurit, compared to Cure #1 (6.5%).

Ah, I just noticed they've given a ratio - 1.3g per Kg. Too easy.

I'll let you know when I try making Saucisses Aux Grenouille (sure to become popular on the boards...) :mrgreen:

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:08
by Chuckwagon
Hi Bearspice,
We do a lot of kidding around here on this forum and the Duckster (El DuckO) and I keep a runnin' feud going just to add a little levity to our posts. Actually, he is a wonderful friend and I have the utmost respect for the man (Russ L.). He is a chemical engineer and a doctor. Believe me, he knows his stuff. I would trust Russ with anything. His advice above is the same as gold and you can take it to the bank! Please follow it. Use sodium nitrite and nitrate cures in all your sausage making. It's just a salt that comes out of the earth and most of it is mined in South America. It is totally safe in carefully prescribed amounts. Botulism is rare... but it is fatal! :shock:

Best Wishes,

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 02:19
by bearspice
Could I ask a question please? I need to know how long (roughly) did it take for the sausages to get to 152°F in the hot water? I am about to try this recipe and want to know how long to leave them before testing the internal temp. (reason being, I need the thermometer to monitor the water temperature, and have to stick it in the end of a wiener to get it's temp periodically. I don't want to have to stand there for hours if I don't need to)

Cheers & Thanks,

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 01:56
by IdaKraut

It's difficult to tell you how long it will take to hit internal meat temps. It all depends on how much water you are using, how many sausages, temperature of said sausages when they go in the hot water bath, etc. I use a table top full size steamer tray which puts out around 1500 watts and using about 2 gallons of water for 12 pounds of hot dogs and it takes me roughly 40 minutes to hit 152°F with water temperature steady at 160°F. I would say check your internal sausage temps at 30 minutes and go from there.

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 06:03
by bearspice
Thank you!! I will do that. Just got the meat today, will be busier than a one-armed paper-hanger tomorrow !! :mrgreen: