Question about Kabanosy cooking

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Gray Goat
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Question about Kabanosy cooking

Post by Gray Goat » Wed Feb 12, 2014 23:04

I have seen that most Kabanosy recipes call for several days of drying
time after cooking.
I was thinking of hanging them in my dehydrator at a very low temp for
a few hours to help dry them after smoking them to the proper IT. Has
anyone tried this ?
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Post by checkerfred » Thu Feb 13, 2014 01:03

I have thought about this. I would think it would dry out the outside too fast and the inside would be mushy. I place mine in a small fridge with a wet towel. I keep the temp around 50 degrees and the humidity is usually at about 70%. I've seen some recipes say to just put it in the fridge for 5-7 days. My fridges usually has a humidity level of about 40 something %.
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Post by redzed » Thu Feb 13, 2014 05:06

Why do you guys want to make a simple process more complicated? Follow the traditional recipe and you will have a great product! Follow Marianski's instructions and forget about "bumping the temp up by 10 degrees every hour" and smoking the dang things for six or ten hours. Kabanosy are meant smoked lightly and then the the temp is raised to 180 or even 190 for a short period of time to give them that crusty baked appearance. You don't dunk them into cold water! They are supposed to be wrinkly looking! And just leave them hanging at room temp for 3 to 5 days. Keep the flies off them and they will be great! If there are still any left after that, put them into a paper sack and into the fridge, vaccuum pack and freeze or throw them into your back pack and take a hike!
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Post by Cabonaia » Thu Feb 13, 2014 07:06

Amen to that. I just stack them up like Lincoln logs and leave them on top of the fridge for a few days (while chipping away at them - who could help it?). There is nothing simpler than Kabanosy.

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Post by Chuckwagon » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:16

Why do you guys want to make a simple process more complicated? Follow the traditional recipe and you will have a great product! Follow Marianski's instructions and forget about "bumping the temp up by 10 degrees every hour" and smoking the dang things for six or ten hours. Kabanosy are meant smoked lightly and then the the temp is raised to 180 or even 190 for a short period of time to give them that crusty baked appearance. You don't dunk them into cold water! They are supposed to be wrinkly looking! And just leave them hanging at room temp for 3 to 5 days. Keep the flies off them and they will be great! If there are still any left after that, put them into a paper sack and into the fridge, vaccuum pack and freeze or throw them into your back pack and take a hike!
Redzed, well said and spot on! :wink:

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Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by checkerfred » Thu Feb 13, 2014 18:21

redzed wrote:Why do you guys want to make a simple process more complicated? Follow the traditional recipe and you will have a great product! Follow Marianski's instructions and forget about "bumping the temp up by 10 degrees every hour" and smoking the dang things for six or ten hours. Kabanosy are meant smoked lightly and then the the temp is raised to 180 or even 190 for a short period of time to give them that crusty baked appearance. You don't dunk them into cold water! They are supposed to be wrinkly looking! And just leave them hanging at room temp for 3 to 5 days. Keep the flies off them and they will be great! If there are still any left after that, put them into a paper sack and into the fridge, vaccuum pack and freeze or throw them into your back pack and take a hike!
Well this didn't seem too friendly. I believe your referring to me. If so why didn't you respond to my thread? I believe I read chuckwagon say on here that there are no silly questions.


So first of I didn't smoke mine for 6 hours but I did have them in the smoker cooking. Else they wouldn't have got to internal temp. And I had them cooking at 170-175. So should I have pulled them and ate them under cooked? Regarding the bump in temp every few min I've seen some recipes for snack sticks say this to keep the fat from melting out. Further more when you read to keep temps 170 and below it's confusing to see a recipe suggest baking at 190. I've had problems with fat rendering out. As for the 3-5 days at room temp, that confuses me also. I thought to be shelf stable and left out, they would need to have a pH of less than 5 and a water activity of .85 or less. And dunking them in water, I thought you were supposed to do to stop the cooking process.

So as you can see, even tho I've been on this forum a while I'm still new at sausage making and still learning. I joined this forum to get help from more experienced people and to learn more about a hobby I enjoy. Sorry if I struck a nerve.
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Post by checkerfred » Thu Feb 13, 2014 20:01

Also, the recipe said bake for about 20 min at 140-190° F until meat reaches internal temp of 154-160F. There's no way it would reach internal temp at 140, 150, and it would take many hours at 160, which is why I thought it might need to be bumped every few minutes.

I saw on here were someone asked about Rytek's Dried Sausage Stick recipe calling for cold smoking at 98-110 for 8 hrs. Chuckwagon explained that this was the lag phase and is usually done without smoke, and that Rytek meant holding it in the fermentation stage longer to increase lactic acid and a more tangy flavor. My point of this is sometimes a recipe isn't 100% easy to follow, especially to someone relatively new and trying to learn. If I don't understand something, I like to ask so I will. Also, I've never even seen (other than on a forum) much less tasted many of these sausages, especially in their "correct" form. So, I'm still learning alot and trying to figure everything out. Maybe one day I will understand things to the level you guys do.
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Post by Gray Goat » Fri Feb 14, 2014 00:29

I am not trying to reinvent the wheel here ,I just threw out an Idea to get some feedback.
Sometimes life happens and you may not be able to follow proper and respected sausage
protocol :roll:

Maybe I will just go with Private Messaging from now on.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Fri Feb 14, 2014 09:44

Naw, Gray Goat, don`t go to PM for questions. Keep it public so everyone can learn. There are some very intelligent questions here. Also, some very good answers. I don`t believe Chris was being "unfriendly" and I`m sure he didn`t mean to appear to be. He is simply aware that Kabanosy has a very specific recipe and a specific method of preparation. Heck, he gave me particular hell when I suggested putting them into collagen casings! But the fact is, most folks these days, just can`t afford the sheep casings in narrower gauges. Also, Chris is Polish and used to a very specific mode of preparation for Kabanosy. It isn`t to be hurried and it should never have substitutions put into its ingredients. I wrote "spot on" because he was defending the Polish tradition in making these tasty little devils! They HAVE to be made without variation or they just wouldn`t be Kabanosy anymore.

Collagen cannot be dipped into water or it turns into glue. Just ask any ol` vet. I`ll never know just how my pal Joe (Butterbean) gets away with it. He knows something I surely don`t.

Checkerfred , our buddy Redzed is right about not bumping up the temperature. The cooking time on these little things is so short (due to the narrow diameter) that there is not TIME to bump up the temp. These little things should be done in twenty minutes or so, depending upon the heat of your oven. And yes, they MUST dry for three days. Not only for safety reasons, but because they are palatable only then. Consumed any sooner and they will be moist and mushy - sort of like my ex`s handshake! :roll:

The problem with reading someone`s remarks is that we cannot always hear the intended inflection. I`m sure Redzed only had your benefit in mind - otherwise he wouldn`t have answered at all. He`s simply defending his beloved Kabanosy recipe by keeping folks from making up their own rules. That`s the reason I gave him the "spot on".

So, Chekerfred, you ol` salty dog... you`re an important sidekick and valued member of this forum. You`re among friend bwana! Don`t be going anywhere and don`t quit asking questions.

I consider all three of you men as very good friends! Keep on learnin` fellas - and for goodness sakes... keep on helping others!

Your Pal With Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by checkerfred » Fri Feb 14, 2014 19:04

Chuckwagon wrote:
The problem with reading someone`s remarks is that we cannot always hear the intended inflection. I`m sure Redzed only had your benefit in mind - otherwise he wouldn`t have answered at all. He`s simply defending his beloved Kabanosy recipe by keeping folks from making up their own rules. That`s the reason I gave him the "spot on".
Thanks Chuckwagon....I'm sure this is the case. I just want the seasoned pros to know, that people like me that are just starting out don't know these things that are second nature to you guys. There's probably also a difference in cultures/regions. We aren't as strict with recipes. Sure it may be a little different by adding or changing something, and may not be the original recipe, but the taste is good. I never substitute unless I have tried the recipe several times or I know that an ingredient can be exchanged. I realize that summer sausage is supposed to be put in bigger casings. But is it so wrong to want smaller snack size links that I can grab on or two on my way out and eat as I'm going instead of having to get the big ring out and cut pieces off to take?

Don't get me wrong, I want to learn how to make the recipe's exactly which is why I posted about my temps in the first place. Mine simply did not reach IT in 20 min at 170. It didn't make sense to me why the temp range for finishing the cooking process was 140-190 at 20 minutes since anything from 140-160 or 170 wouldn't do this is that amount of time.

I have since found out that my smoker in the really cold temps (for the south :grin:) is not holding the exact temp I set it on. I found this out on another forum. Someone mentioned checking my temp probes which I had already done. Then I read someone else having the same problem and had the same smoker. In cold temps, I may set it to 170 and it may read 150 in the chamber until the heat element kicks on. Then it would jump to around 170 but quickly fall back down. So, I think I'll have to either bump my temperature up higher or just smoke it in the smoker but cook them in the oven.

Can you explain your comment about the Kabanosy being left out for 3 days "not only for safety reasons?" I thought that once it was cooked it was ok to consume immediately?
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Post by Bob K » Fri Feb 14, 2014 19:32

checkerfred wrote: Can you explain your comment about the Kabanosy being left out for 3 days "not only for safety reasons?" I thought that once it was cooked it was ok to consume immediately?

Cfred-

I disagree with CW on the safety issue and so does the Marianski recipe.

I would reference steps 5,6,7, in this recipe: http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage ... s/kabanosy

It is actually OK to eat at that point. But the taste and texture improves with the drying (if they were not overcooked and dried out). It is well worth the wait!!!

There are variations to almost every recipe.....in the old days common sense would rule....today you can't assume its a common ingredient.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Fri Feb 14, 2014 22:07

Hi Fellers...
I was considering Clostridium perfringens food poisoning. Although Clostridium perfringens may live normally in the human intestine, illness is caused by eating food contaminated with large numbers of Clostridium perfringens bacteria producing enough toxin in the intestines to cause illness. Clostridium perfringens spores can survive high temperatures and grows very rapidly between moderate temperatures of 109°F to 117°F (43°C --47°C). Note that during cooling (and holding of food at temperatures from 54°F-140°F (12°C -- 60°C), its spores germinate and then the bacteria grow.

If food is served without reheating to kill the bacteria, live bacteria may be eaten and that bacteria produce a toxin inside the intestine that causes illness. Pre-cooked foods are common sources of Clostridium perfringens infections.

So, you guys are essentially right. Once it has been cooked, it is considered to be safe to eat. Like any other food we consume, the higher cooking temp destroys the pathogens. I'm simply thinking of that second safety assurance we have in "semi-dry curing" where microbes are stopped as the product gives up "available water" at 0.91 Aw (with the exception of staphylococcus aureus) which must drop all the way to 0.86 Aw. With the moisture relieved, most other pathogens simply cannot grow.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by unclebuck » Fri Feb 14, 2014 22:36

I make my kabonosy from pork that has been frozen for at least 30 days. When I do it up into the sausage, it is smoked at 140C with seasoned red willow for 6 hours, and hung it to dry in my garage for 4-5 days, sampling it on a regular basis(with Molson's Canadian). I have found it be far more to my liking when it is done in this way than cooked. I guess that it is a personal preference. I like my Alberta beef steaks "blue" rare!!!!
"What can't be smoked can't be eaten."
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Post by checkerfred » Fri Feb 14, 2014 23:38

Chuckwagon wrote: So, you guys are essentially right. Once it has been cooked, it is considered to be safe to eat. Like any other food we consume, the higher cooking temp destroys the pathogens. I'm simply thinking of that second safety assurance we have in "semi-dry curing" where microbes are stopped as the product gives up "available water" at 0.91 Aw (with the exception of staphylococcus aureus) which must drop all the way to 0.86 Aw. With the moisture relieved, most other pathogens simply cannot grow.
so how do you know what level of water activity you've reached? in particular, my humidity and yours may be different. If so, will my sausages dry enough in 3 days compared to yours? I know you can't measure Aw without an expensive meter. I know I can weigh the sausages but what % reduction do I want
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Post by Carpster » Sat Feb 15, 2014 03:30

.

Checkerfred...here is a picture of the Kabanosy recipe in three different sizes!!! :mrgreen:
Don't let those old dudes beat you up. :wink:
Check out project B 2 on this site...it's a lot of fun and may introduce you to some of the personalities like Redzid, or was it Redzig, or was it Redbird (cardinal) from Missouri, Ha! Here is a pic for you!!!

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