Struggling with Frankfurters

so_not_rad
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Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by so_not_rad » Tue Jan 21, 2020 09:36

Hello there!
I'm brand new to the forum, although I have been using it for the past couple years as a guide line for my own smoked meats and sausages.
Ive been recently asked to create a german version of the frankfurter (or hot dog) for a friend of mine, he requested 0 additives or preservatives.
I've had couple of trial runs recently but I keep having some issues.
My meats currently are
80% pork shoulder
20% pork fat
I use 18% ice water for the emulsion
The texture of my sausages are coming out quite mushy. The first batch, I've added too much water and they were very mushy.
Second trial batch I added exactly 15% and they came out a lot better. Unfortunately it is nowhere near the bouncy, springy meat with nice crunchy, snappy casings that I get in a store. I've had some questions hopefully you guys can answer:
- Do you guys have any basic recipes i could follow that do not contain any fillers or emulsification additives?
- I've read somewhere that an addition of an egg white can help the emulsification?
-I've researched a lot of recipes and some of them ask for lean mean, and some ask for cuts like shank and neck, what is the best cuts that i could use to get great emulsification?
-any other advice would be appreciated!

Thanks,
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Bob K
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by Bob K » Tue Jan 21, 2020 16:02

Welcome to the Forum! You can find several Wiener - Hot Dog recipes here https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-recipes that contain no fillers but all will use Cure #1.....
You may be having some problems with your emulsification and there are some good tips in this string http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.ph ... lsion+tips
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by DanMcG » Thu Jan 23, 2020 17:56

With straight pork, no beef, I'd cut back on the water.
Egg white @ 1-3% will help firm it up as will NFDM.
The darker the meat (like the ones you mentioned) the more myosin it contains, so you'll get a better bind
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by so_not_rad » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:01

Bob K wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 16:02
Welcome to the Forum! You can find several Wiener - Hot Dog recipes here https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-recipes that contain no fillers but all will use Cure #1.....
You may be having some problems with your emulsification and there are some good tips in this string http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.ph ... lsion+tips
Thanks for the answer Bob!
I've been reading through and through those posts over and over.
I'm starting to think that because i am omitting the binders and emulsifiers, it is the reason why I cannot get that "snap" when you bite into store bought hot dogs. I am desperately trying to get there. But it seems like even when I compare my dogs to a store bought ones, mine have less fat and are more soft then the factory made ones which have at least 15% more fat!
Drives me crazy.
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by so_not_rad » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:07

DanMcG wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 17:56
With straight pork, no beef, I'd cut back on the water.
Egg white @ 1-3% will help firm it up as will NFDM.
The darker the meat (like the ones you mentioned) the more myosin it contains, so you'll get a better bind
Thanks for the guidance Dan!
Surprisingly my pork franks are much bouncier and snappier then the beef and pork ones.

My third trial, where I blended the lean meats first for about 4-6 minutes in low temps to develop myosin worked extremely well,
but the sausages came out dry and rubbery, the texture was terrible and that in turn made the casings very dry. Which just made the whole frankfurter un edible.

Like I mentioned above I'm chasing that "snap" that you get when you bite into the sausages. I'm starting to believe that it might be truly just because of amount of meat binders and emulsifiers added to the mix.

My next batch I'll make one with some egg whites. Hopefully that will make it a bit more dense.
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redzed
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by redzed » Thu Jan 30, 2020 07:39

How about giving us the recipe, the ingredients and the exact process when you make your franks? Are you grinding, using a food processor, bowl cutter? Are you staying within the temperature guidelines? Are you smoking and poaching? What type of casings are you using?
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by so_not_rad » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:25

redzed wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 07:39
How about giving us the recipe, the ingredients and the exact process when you make your franks? Are you grinding, using a food processor, bowl cutter? Are you staying within the temperature guidelines? Are you smoking and poaching? What type of casings are you using?
Correct, so sorry I should have started with that :
Beef
1200 Gr Lean Beef
200 Gr Lean Pork
200 Gr Pork Fat
400 Gr Ice Snow
2% Salt
6 Gr White pepper
1,6 Gr Ginger Powder
1,6 Gr Nutmeg Powder
,6 Gr Cardamom

Pork
500 Gr Collar
300 Gr Loin
200 Gr Pork Fat
250 Gr Ice Water
1.5 Gr White Pepper
.5 Gr Nutmeg
.5 Gr Coriander
2 Grams Paprika
2 Grams Garlic Powder
.4 Gr Ginger
.4 Gr Cardamom
2% Salt

I'm currently marinating the meat overnight, next day I grind twice on the smallest size. Unfortunately I am not lucky enough to have a bowl cutter yet, but I am using a food processor, a robot coupe. I start with just the meat almost frozen and I blend for about 4-5 minutes with an addition of ice snow. Then I add the spices and fat at the end with just the small rest of the ice. I never surpass 15C while blending. I let the mix cool down again and stuff into collagen casings size 24. I smoke for about an hour at 60-70C and then poach until it reaches 72C inside. Then shower with cold water and let cool down in the fridge before i pack them away.
Thats it! As I mentioned before I don't use any curing salts or emulsifiers.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by Bob K » Sat Feb 01, 2020 14:12

2 Things I see.
No cure. Without it they will not be firm and probably grey in color, If you want the " nitrate free " version the stores sell use celery powder. Just be aware that you are still adding nitrates but its a loophole in the regs that allow them to say " no added nitrates".
Casings. There are so many different types of collagen casings out there that is sometimes difficult to get the snap that you are looking for, use sheep casings instead.
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by so_not_rad » Fri Mar 27, 2020 06:24

Bob K wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 14:12
2 Things I see.
No cure. Without it they will not be firm and probably grey in color, If you want the " nitrate free " version the stores sell use celery powder. Just be aware that you are still adding nitrates but its a loophole in the regs that allow them to say " no added nitrates".
Casings. There are so many different types of collagen casings out there that is sometimes difficult to get the snap that you are looking for, use sheep casings instead.
Hey Bob!
Thank you so much for your help, I found some old polish books about emulsification, on the polish version of this site, and spent good couple hours reading about it. Turns out my blender was just too fast for the process and it ended up destroying the meat too much.
I bought a speed controllable blender ( the best speed is about 1500 Rpm).
I've taken all your advice to heart and followed everything.
Basically I ended up making a mixture or loin, collar and fat.
The recipe is as follows :

500 Gr Collar
300 Gr Loin
200 Gr Fat
250 Gr Ice Water
1.5 Gr White Pepper
.5 Gr Nutmeg
.5 Gr Coriander
2 Grams Paprika
2 Grams Garlic Powder
.4 Gr Ginger
.4 Gr Cardamom
1.8%. Salt
.2% Curing Salt

I like to cure my meat overnight with the dry spices and salt because it helps me in the extraction of myosin.
So I portion the meat in small chunks, mix with dry spices and let rest overnight. (Keep the fat separate)
Next day I semi freeze the meat and fat and grind it, Twice on the smallest size possible.
I let the mix rest until the temperature goes back to about 2C. Then I proceed to blend just the meat mix for about 3-4 minutes, if the temperature rises close to 13-15C I add the ice water to bring it down.(I've read that the best extractions of myosin from the meat happen at around 4-8C)
After that I add the ice water until i have 1/4 left. And continue to blend for about 3 minutes. Carefully watching the temperatures. Never letting it rise above 12C.
At the end I add the pork fat thats been chilled until 2-4C and the rest of the ice water . I continue to blend until the whole mixture reaches 14-16C. (because that's when the emulsification between fat, protein and water is at its peak).The whole process takes about 8-10 minutes. I let the mixture rest until it comes back to 10C. ( I find that if the mixture is very cold- around 2-4C, its harder to stuff and there is more air pockets inside, while its a bit softer it fills the collagen casings easier and it allows me to make sure that they are very tight and filled to the max.)
They get transferred to a smoker thats running at around 40-50C and its usually around 20 minutes until they are dry.
They get smoked for about and hour at 70C, I look mostly for the colouring the of the casings and the amount of smoke i want to inject.
I poach them at 75C, until the inside temp reaches 69C. Throw them in an ice bath until the temp drops below 60C and I like to let them bloom in the fridge for couple of hours to get that really nice snappy dry casing.
I've found personally that packing them in vacuum bags and sealing at 100%, letting them rest overnight helps the meat to become homogenous, bouncy and snappy.

The results are fantastic! I've spent 3 months working on this recipe, so many trials, but I am so happy with the end result, they are snappy, bouncy, they taste amazing and most importantly I did not have to use any emulsifiers or fillers to make them taste just like the store bought ones!

I hope this helps anyone who has been struggling with this emulsification process!
And thanks again for all the help. I could have not done it with everyones advice!
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by Bob K » Fri Mar 27, 2020 14:39

Glad it all worked out!
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by martin » Wed May 20, 2020 21:16

Hi
Gonna try this weekend copy my favorite franks- Berlinki, Polish style hot dog better then any American one, sorry but I don’t know why American hotdog are so bad , probably too much old cow’s skins and fat ( that’s they call beef)
Berlinki 70% pork and rest is flillers plus phosphates, so try make small batch and see, in Polish ( New Britain, CT) store Berlinki for five links ( 250grams) is 4.30$ - rip off, in Poland 1$ ,
I read I think in this forum someone write is winners or hotdog have to be make with phosphate . If you want have good Polish or German hotdog, witch you can buy in supermarkets in Europe other name is paròwki z szynki ( ham hotdog) They all have phosphate.
Many manufacturers in Poland trying to offer also pure hotdogs - NO filers and phosphate, so in blind test this 100 %organic hotdog got last place even after very cheap one
Why? I think the one without phosphate not soft and fluffy but more on crumble and hard side
Let me try this weekend make 5 lb batch , with 10gNFD milk and 2 g phosphate per 1kg , and 2 g msg and 2g nutmeg plus 1 g ginger , 3 g pepper, 2g ista cure ,18 g salt and 25 -30% cold water plus ice
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by so_not_rad » Thu May 21, 2020 02:44

martin wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 21:16
Hi
Gonna try this weekend copy my favorite franks- Berlinki, Polish style hot dog better then any American one, sorry but I don’t know why American hotdog are so bad , probably too much old cow’s skins and fat ( that’s they call beef)
Berlinki 70% pork and rest is flillers plus phosphates, so try make small batch and see, in Polish ( New Britain, CT) store Berlinki for five links ( 250grams) is 4.30$ - rip off, in Poland 1$ ,
I read I think in this forum someone write is winners or hotdog have to be make with phosphate . If you want have good Polish or German hotdog, witch you can buy in supermarkets in Europe other name is paròwki z szynki ( ham hotdog) They all have phosphate.
Many manufacturers in Poland trying to offer also pure hotdogs - NO filers and phosphate, so in blind test this 100 %organic hotdog got last place even after very cheap one
Why? I think the one without phosphate not soft and fluffy but more on crumble and hard side
Let me try this weekend make 5 lb batch , with 10gNFD milk and 2 g phosphate per 1kg , and 2 g msg and 2g nutmeg plus 1 g ginger , 3 g pepper, 2g ista cure ,18 g salt and 25 -30% cold water plus ice
Good Luck! I've never been big on phosphate, but i've managed to get quite the amazing bounce, and flufiness, with still that beautiful snap at the end. I think as long as you manage to control the temperatures you can do it quite well
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by martin » Thu May 21, 2020 11:38

Thanks, I tried couple of times make winners without phosphate , and they come out ok , but still not like this one I eaten in Europe, so we see if I notice any different with phosphate Yee I know temperature is the most important thing in hot dog, but I don’t have bowl cutter, and in food processor is not easy thing, and one more thing meat quality, usually use boston butt from Costco which I cut more fatty parts for hot dogs I think fresh pork from farmers gonna be make big difference to , but paying 500$ for half hog (100lb meat) from farm is to much for me.
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by Butterbean » Fri May 22, 2020 00:13

Martin you should shop around. $500 for half a hog is robbery. I could get you a whole hog for less than half that price. Hogs are cheap, especially with the breakdown in the supply chain, I'd look around some. Do you guys have FFA in your schools? That's a good place to start if you do. Sales are only once a year but you can buy one on resale after the auction for market price which would put you at around $250 for a quality pig.
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Re: Struggling with Frankfurters

Post by martin » Fri May 22, 2020 03:46

Thank You
I Live in Connecticut , and last week I check five small farms in here , so most of them wants 4-5$ for lb fresh pork , they call organic that’s way you have to pay that’s much . Maybe I will try call more farmers , I know some people driving to PA from CT to get fresh hog from farmers for not crazy price .
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