Nitrite Nitrate free cold smoked Bacon?

Fingers
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Nitrite Nitrate free cold smoked Bacon?

Post by Fingers » Thu Oct 06, 2016 17:35

Hi Guys

I am making bacon using only salt @5% sealed in the bag fridge curing for 7-10 days style. Then kept in the fridge to dry, till its been eaten.
I want to do this simply due to the possible health risks of the Nitrite Nitrate and feel that there is little risk in leaving it out. I feel sure many will disagree.

However
I cold smoked the last batch of bacon (using cure~#1) with oak for 12 hours with great success, some of it is still maturing in our fridge.
Whilst I feel comfortable in leaving out the cure#1 for unsmoked bacon I am not sure if cold smoking would call for cure#1 as a must do?

I have been learning that Nitrite Nitrate is the thing to avoid in meats, reducing your intake of Nitrite Nitrate is very much recommended. Well I like meat and wish to continue to eating it at the rate I do :) hence remove Nitrite Nitrate, if you follow my logic.
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Post by Bob K » Thu Oct 06, 2016 18:01

Fingers wrote:Whilst I feel comfortable in leaving out the cure#1 for unsmoked bacon I am not sure if cold smoking would call for cure#1 as a must do?
Short answer is yes

By cold smoking you are putting your bacon in a low oxygen environment that encourages the growth of botulism spores.
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Post by Fingers » Thu Oct 06, 2016 18:05

Cheers Bob

Thanks for confirming that, will need to use the cure if cold smoking.

Would you say I am ok with the unsmoked Nitrite Nitrate free bacon?
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Post by Bob K » Thu Oct 06, 2016 18:18

To be honest by the time a bacon cured with the recommended amount (120 ppm) is aged, cooked and then consumed very little if any nitrite remains as it has been reduced to nitrous oxide.
As far as health risks I would more concerned about the high salt content (5%)

If you mean is fresh (uncured) bacon safe, yes by all means. Follow the rules for any fresh meat.
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Re: Nitrite Nitrate free cold smoked Bacon?

Post by Butterbean » Thu Oct 06, 2016 21:07

Fingers wrote:I have been learning that Nitrite Nitrate is the thing to avoid in meats, reducing your intake of Nitrite Nitrate is very much recommended. Well I like meat and wish to continue to eating it at the rate I do :) hence remove Nitrite Nitrate, if you follow my logic.
Just out of curiosity what are you basing this on?
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Post by Fingers » Thu Oct 06, 2016 23:43

Popular scientific testing have shown more risks of cancer from processed meats. If nitrate nitrite is not needed why use it. This is my logic. Clearly there are millions of people consuming cured meat without nitrate nitrite, be it meat to be cooked first like bacon or uncooked.

If there was such a problem of not using nitrate nitrite, there would be thousands of cases of deaths from botulism. Yet there are none or certainly very few.?

5% salt for curing is nothing I am worried about, compared to 3%
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Post by BriCan » Fri Oct 07, 2016 09:12

Fingers wrote:Popular scientific testing have shown more risks of cancer from processed meats. If nitrate nitrite is not needed why use it. This is my logic. Clearly there are millions of people consuming cured meat without nitrate nitrite, be it meat to be cooked first like bacon or uncooked.
Just out of curiosity and cured meats aside all this boils down to if I am reading you right that you do not want to associate with anything that has or contains nitrate nitrite in it/them

Is this a fair statement?
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Post by Fingers » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:46

I am simply wanting to not consume nitrate nitrite if it is at all possible. I am aware there are natural nitrate nitrite in many foods, celery for one which we use quite a bit in our house. This however is "natural", whether this makes any difference? But we are back to the "experts" then, of which I do like to take with a pinch of salt.

If it is not 100% needed to put nitrate in unsmoked bacon then I am quite happy to leave it out. It might not be as nice with out, I don't know this is the first time I have tried it. I have just had my oak cold smoked bacon (with cure#1) which has been maturing in my fridge for 2 weeks now. I can tell you it was the best bacon I have ever had in my 48 years. :)

Just found this https://www.graigfarm.co.uk/organic-pro ... acon-p1040

If they are commercially selling it then some "experts" regard it safe. Its not cheap at all!!!

edit*

Also just found this

http://ellisesfarm.co.uk/catalogue.php? ... m_id=14089

Nitrate free smoked bacon!?
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Post by Fingers » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:56

Then you read this and wonder what all the fuss is about fearing nitrate nitrite

https://chriskresser.com/the-nitrate-an ... ear-bacon/
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Post by Bob K » Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:59

If you do some further research you will also find the "Nitrate Free" Bacon can contain MUCH
more nitrate/nitrite than most other bacon, in an unregulated amount due to its form. Also why they can claim Nitrate free. :shock:
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Post by redzed » Fri Oct 07, 2016 14:53

Fingers, I think the best approach to this debate is contained in the summary from this article:
http://www.prevention.com/food/healthy- ... d-nitrates

There's no simple answer. Whether nitrates and nitrites are a boon or a blight may depend heavily on what foods they come from and the particular human ingesting them. One thing is for sure: Nitrates' and nitrites' reputation as avoid-at-all-cost, cancer-causing nasties does not appear to be entirely accurate.

There are so many other foods that will cause serious illness if ingested in large amounts, for example sugar, carbohydrates, salt, most fats, and so on. There are those that will tell you that butter will kill you and others that margarine will do the same.A glass or two a day of red wine will not harm you and might even benefit you, but if you get sloshed every day you are not doing yourself any favours. And you are probably correct in having some concerns about nitrite. Eating excessive amounts of cured meats is not good for you. Eat a balanced diet with everything in moderation.

Now to your bacon. Remember that the nitrite that you input into your bacon is ultimately converted to nitric oxide. Google nitric oxide and you will find that nitric oxide is not only good for you, but essential to life. Depending on the product and process there will be only 10 t0 20% of nitrite remaining in the finished product. The first link that you gave to the nitrite free bacon is a dry cured (not smoked) product, something like an Italian pancetta. You can easily make one yourself. But if you use sea salt to cure the meat, you will probably be adding some nitrates as these are naturally occurring in salts that are not highly processed. You could also hot smoke your bacon without nitrite at a temp above 55C until it has an internal temp of 65C. And also keep in mind that without the cure the bacon will not taste the same, it will taste like salty roast pork. Using as little as 40ppm of nitrite will give you colour and some flavour and 80ppm will provide you with protective benefits. You don't need to use the maximum allowable amount and I don't understand why many think that they have to use that. In Canada and US the maximum allowable amount of ingoing nitrite into bacon is 120, and is what I usually use. But for sausages the maximum allowable amount in Canada is 200ppm but I use 120ppm and if it's fatty only 100ppm or maybe even a little less.

Here is a balanced view on the subject of processed meats and cancer:
http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org ... d-to-know/
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Post by Butterbean » Fri Oct 07, 2016 17:42

My son in medical school studying to be a heart surgeon so he had an interest in this topic from both sides of the issue. He said a lot of this fear is blown out of proportion for various reasons and moderation is the key.

In the US, it is illegal to sell bacon unless it is cured with nitrite however you cannot use nitrates but you can find many companies advertising nitrite free bacon. They get around this by either using sea salt which contains nitrates or they use celery powder which again is nitrate. This is similar to the bacon in your link. Here is their claim.
This bacon is dry cured here on the farm using a traditional family recipe. The dry curing process only uses sea salt and therefore does not contain any nitrates.
But how can this be true if they are using sea salt? Sea salt has nitrates in it.

They get around this just like here because they are not adding nitrates directly but common sense tells you they are adding nitrates. In fact, you can even purchase sea salts from Italy which give you the analysis showing the amount of nitrates in the salt. If you go back in history you can find where people learned that certain salt deposits were better at curing meat than others and this might explain the differences in Italian prosciutto from region to region and why certain ones must use a certain salt from specific sources.

Whats interesting to me is if the use of nitrates are so life threatening that we ban the use of nitrates in bacon production why then is it considered safe to use sea salt or celery powder in bacon production? Samples of nitrite free bacon in the US have shown them to contain up to ten times the allowable limits of nitrites.

I agree that one should stay away from nitrate in bacon because its unnecessary when nitrite is a better and safer choice but it puzzles me how so many refuse to use nitrite but are so willing to add nitrates to their products thinking it safe just because it comes in an unrefined form and in most cases its added in an unmeasurable form.

Personally, I would rather know how much nitrite I'm adding than leaving it to chance. Just because we understand the science doesn't make it bad. I think by understanding the science of it means we have a better understanding of nature and I think it cool that we can use our understanding of the nitrogen cycle to make our food safe. And as mentioned, by understanding the science we can use measurable amounts so that little if any nitrites are left in the finished product and this cannot be said for the so called nitrate free bacon.
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Post by Fingers » Fri Oct 07, 2016 18:39

Thanks folks for taking the time you have with this, it certainly is an interesting subject.

After talking to the lovely lady at ellisesfarm.co.uk she was very helpful. She told me they have been trading for 10 years, rear their own pigs which means they have full control. They know where the meat has been, they are meticulous with hygiene and get regular inspections. I buy from the butcher and supermarket. This maybe the difference which they can get away without using cure#1 or 2.

Because of not knowing how fresh and where the meat has been before I even touch it is swaying me more back to using the cure#s.
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Post by redzed » Fri Oct 07, 2016 18:58

Your lady at the farm may be lovely but if they claim that they "cure" their bacon with "juniper berries and bay leaves", I would question whether they really know what they are doing and have any understanding of meat science.
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Post by Kunde » Sat Oct 08, 2016 02:10

Myth: The Use of Celery Powder to Cure Some Meats is Misleading

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceyupxc2EMo
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