Understanding Tublin/ Umai

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Butterbean
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Post by Butterbean » Sat Feb 07, 2015 00:34

Looks good. A bit off the subject but I would like to pose a question based on an observation I have made. I haven't messed with the Umai bags yet but I have noticed that summer sausage hung in the cooler will continue to dry in the collagen casings and if left hanging in they will continue to dry till they are rock hard so I was wondering if or why these couldn't be used in the same manner as the Umai bags. Anyone considered trying this?
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Post by redzed » Sat Feb 07, 2015 02:14

Butterbean wrote:Looks good. A bit off the subject but I would like to pose a question based on an observation I have made. I haven't messed with the Umai bags yet but I have noticed that summer sausage hung in the cooler will continue to dry in the collagen casings and if left hanging in they will continue to dry till they are rock hard so I was wondering if or why these couldn't be used in the same manner as the Umai bags. Anyone considered trying this?
The technology behind the Tublin® 10 film is that it was developed especially to dry age meat by being able to allow moisture to escape but at the same time not allow bacteria to enter. So it's not really a "casing". It also allows the meat to dry slowly from the inside, withot hardening first around the perimeter. When your summer sausage dries in the cooler, the meat has already been smoked and essentially cooked, making it safe to dry. I'm not sure that would work if you stuffed raw fermented meat into the collagen casing and then let it dry in the cooler, but I suppose one can try. I have known people to dry raw meat sausages on balconies, kitchens and attics.

http://www.tub-ex.com/Food+2.24.aspx?recordid24=14
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Post by Butterbean » Sat Feb 07, 2015 18:36

Not arguing just throwing out thoughts for discussion.

I question the Umai's ability over another casing to keep pathogens out over another casing that will take smoke - hence being somewhat porous. After all, is this not a mute point when making salami because why would a bacteria be a problem when the mince - if properly salted, cured and fermented - is microbiologically stable as described by Marianski? I would think the hurdles have been met and the key question would be whether the mince would dry properly and within an acceptable time frame before the initial safeguards begin to lose their effectiveness. But if treated like a Umai bag and refrigerated then this window would be extended I would think but I don't know. I'm just trying to connect the dots and it may well be these bags are much more porous than a smokeable casing but it would seem that if another casing will dry properly its the technique and not so much the bag itself that makes it work and this could mean lots to the pocketbook.

Again, just thinking out loud and would greatly appreciate anyone's thoughts.
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Post by Bob K » Sat Feb 07, 2015 18:55

I guess you have to think of the Tublin bags as having the ability to release moisture at a controlled rate. Natural and fibrous casings will evaporate water at the rate allowed by the ambient humidity....the Tublin (Umai) material will allow only so much out at a time.

Dry rim (case hardening) is a large issue (AKA problem) with conventional casings without a proper environment (curing/drying chamber)...it is minimised with Tublin.

The bacteria barrier applies more to aging of (uncured/ or fermented) whole muscle cuts.

And yes there are types of Tublin bags available that are smokeable.

They are available in Australia from Misty Gully and http://www.smokedandcured.com.au/

You can read about the properties of the different bags here:

http://www.tub-ex.com/Food+2.24.aspx
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Post by Butterbean » Sat Feb 07, 2015 20:38

True but ambient temps and slow drying wouldn't apply in this case because it would be a completely different technique just as the Umai bags use. Refrigeration by nature is going to pull moisture. I've never seen case hardening happen in a cooler......of course I've never had reason to try it either ..... but the summer sausages I forgot about sure dried just like salami in their bags. Was this because they were finished? Maybe. But it seems it would be worth a try just to see if its truly the bag or the technique itself.

I'm just curious and by no means am I knocking the product.

Unless there are some health risks I'm overlooking I might just have to perform an experiment in the future to appease my curiousity. No harm in trying.
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Post by Shuswap » Sat Feb 07, 2015 20:52

Bob K wrote:the Tublin (Umai) material will allow only so much out at a time.
One of things I really enjoy about WD is this kind of thought provoking thread :grin: Bob, if you are correct then something else has to explain the differential rate of lost moisture while hanging in a Umai bag in the fridge. On my next Umai project I am going to do a daily weight test instead of a periodic test as I do now to see what occurs.
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Post by redzed » Wed Feb 11, 2015 22:18

I also have a large number of questions about the technology of using the Tublin products in dry fermented meats. If there are existing studies with data and analysis on this particular application, to date I have not been able to locate it. The Tublin spec sheets don't tell us enough and the Umai folks just tell us "to follow the recipe and trust us". I have been reading the excellent and informative compilation on fermentation of meats, edited by Fidel Toldra. Handbook of Fermented Meat and Poultry. There are discussions on all aspects of the science but nothing like the Tublin or even related method. Two the questions that immediately come to mind are how do aerobic and microaerophilic bacteria work in while enclosed in the Tublin material, and how well is fermentation continuing at fridge temps at 3-4C (38-39F)? So are the Bactoferm cultures Umai advises us to use doing the job that they were designed to do?

Another concern I have is with the Umai recipes for thin diameter sausages using their 32mm tubes. They state that the sausages will be ready in two weeks and yet the recipes call for T-SPX and Cure #2. Both these products are more appropriately used when the fermentation/drying period is over 4 weeks. I doubt that the nitrates in the Cure # have been reduced to nitrates during that time, especially in refrigerator temperatures and T-SPX works best when there is an extended drying/maturing period.

Would be nice to have some sort of explanation from the manufacturer and purveyors of the product.

If you are looking to fill those long winter nights with some good reading, you can download Toldra's fat tome here:

https://www.academia.edu/8548143/Handbo ... nd_Poultry
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Post by Bob K » Thu Feb 12, 2015 15:32

redzed wrote:Would be nice to have some sort of explanation from the manufacturer and purveyors of the product.
You can ask over at the Umai forum....but you will get answers that evade/sidestep the question better than a skilled politician.

Thank you for that download...lots of info in an easy to understand format.
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Post by Shuswap » Thu Feb 12, 2015 16:08

Over on winepress.us forum there is a discussion about the drybags including reference to research by Kansas State University, which is not cited. I've tried searching the University's research libraries without success. :mad:
http://www.winepress.us/forums/index.ph ... eef/page-4
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Post by Bob K » Thu Feb 12, 2015 16:42

Phil-
That study is listed on the Umai site. It is on Dry aging beef.....and you have to pay to download it in PDF form.

You can also find it here:
http://www.pubfacts.com/search/Dry+ageing+bag
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Post by Shuswap » Thu Feb 12, 2015 16:56

Bob K wrote:Phil-
That study is listed on the Umai site. It is on Dry aging beef.....and you have to pay to download it in PDF form.

You can also find it here:
http://www.pubfacts.com/search/Dry+ageing+bag
Don't think I'll pay $36 to download the study. It kind of goes with the corporate culture of Umai doesn't it - cloaked in secrecy unless you are willing to pay. :twisted:
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Post by Devo » Thu Feb 12, 2015 17:49

Bob K wrote:
redzed wrote:Would be nice to have some sort of explanation from the manufacturer and purveyors of the product.
You can ask over at the Umai forum....but you will get answers that evade/sidestep the question better than a skilled politician.
I almost spit out my coffee, I'm sure the very skilled moderators over there can answer all your questions Image
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