New here to the forum, but I've got a batch of Polish sausage going. I made it yesterday, and my intention was to cold smoke it, according to the Marianski book. But I'm thinking myself in circles here. So the book says the maximum temp for cold smoking is 86 degrees F. But the book also says this way up in the danger zone for bacterial growth. At the same time, it says that in the old days, meats were cold smoked for days or even weeks.
OK, so I cut and cured the meat with salt and cure #1 according to the recipe. Left it in my fridge for about 1 1/2 days. Then seasoned it and stuffed it yesterday afternoon. Then I took it out to my cold smoker. It was a unseasonably warm March day, and I proceeded to hang the sausage and the initial smoke temperature was 85 degrees with a thin smoke. Still under 86 degrees, I thought, so OK. So I proceeded to apply thin, cold smoke until this morning. The smoke temp this morning is 45 degrees. Still should be OK, according to the directions for cold smoking. Temperature outside today is supposed to approach 77 and sunny, the smoker is black, so I figure I'll take the sausage inside and put it in the fridge so it doesn't hang outside and potentially go above the 86 degree mark. The sausage has smoke aroma, but no color yet. But now I'm second guessing.
Am I doing this right? Was it really OK to leave it out there for 10 hours at those temperatures with thin smoke? I'm new to cured sausages. I've made fresh sausages for years, but I really don't know whether I'm doing the right thing here. I don't want to have sausages that I'm worried about, especially to serve to the family and friends.
Confused about cold smoking
Welcome to the forum Kozulich. Personally I have yet to cold smoke, but based on my reading you are right on. Smoke, rest, smoke rest, smoke. I prefer a bit of a heavy smoke but to each his own. Cold smoking imparts a smoke flavor deeper into the meat via the smoke, rest cycles. As long as you have used the proper amount of cure in your meat you will be rewarded without a doubt. Follow the rules, follow the hygiene. Your friends and family will be asking for more.
I'm certain others smarter than me will chime in too to help you along.
Dave Zac
I'm certain others smarter than me will chime in too to help you along.
Dave Zac
I guess what's got me 2nd guessing is that the book says cure #1 prevents the botulin spores from turning into toxin. It doesn't say that it prevents the botulin spores from reproducing, and it also doesn't say that cure #1 does anything to inhibit e. coli, salmonella, listeria or other bad bacteria. Maybe that's all implied?
I appreciate the importance of the fact the botulin toxin is inhibited, but I don't really want a belly full of botulin spores either, do I? Does the cure #1 prevent bacterial growth, or is that the job of the salt? How long could I theoretically cold smoke the meat (how many days, at what temperature) before I would need to worry?
I don't mean to bombard with questions, or obsess about this. Its just a bit unnerving to have brought in the sausage from 10 hours outdoors at those temperatures, and it still looks and feels completely raw. Maybe I should just trust the process, but my mind would be more at ease if I had some more in depth understanding of what's going on.
kozulich
I appreciate the importance of the fact the botulin toxin is inhibited, but I don't really want a belly full of botulin spores either, do I? Does the cure #1 prevent bacterial growth, or is that the job of the salt? How long could I theoretically cold smoke the meat (how many days, at what temperature) before I would need to worry?
I don't mean to bombard with questions, or obsess about this. Its just a bit unnerving to have brought in the sausage from 10 hours outdoors at those temperatures, and it still looks and feels completely raw. Maybe I should just trust the process, but my mind would be more at ease if I had some more in depth understanding of what's going on.
kozulich
I believe that the 86 degree point is where fish start to cook. I have had the good fortune to do my cold smoking on very cool days. Most of the true cold smoking I have done has been on cheese and the cheese seems a bit harsh coming from the smoker but after a couple of days in the fridge the flavor has penetrated to the center.The danger zone for bacteria growth is above 50 up to about 120 with the worst in the 80 to 100 range.
Ross- tightwad home cook
you must read a little more in the book. Bacteria grow faster in warm conditions but you have erected a small barrier with the salt in your cure and with the nitrite. Cold smoking helps to reduce the water in the meat and the bacteria need the water.
The rate of spoilage can be understood with observing road kill at various times of the year. A road kill deer will not start to stink for several weeks when the weather stays cool but will bloat and stink in three days in july. Again the 86 degree mark is the upper limit for cold smoking fish
The rate of spoilage can be understood with observing road kill at various times of the year. A road kill deer will not start to stink for several weeks when the weather stays cool but will bloat and stink in three days in july. Again the 86 degree mark is the upper limit for cold smoking fish
Ross- tightwad home cook
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two_MN_kids
- Frequent User
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- Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 14:25
- Location: Blaine, MN
Welcome to WD kozulich. I'm new here also, but this is the place to be if you want to learn! There are many very experienced sausage makers that frequent this site; one or several will have the correct answer.
What recipe of Stan's are you using. Here is the link to Cold Smoked Polish on the mother site. As you will see, it specifies cure #2. It would seem that cold smoked sausages are dried rather than cooked. I too would be cautious of cure #1 and not hot smoking them.
http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-re ... old-smoked
I have not yet tried this recipe, and am anxious to hear what the experts say. My experience with cold smoking has been on cheese and applying smoke to sausages that are hot cooked.
I still have lots to learn!
Jim
What recipe of Stan's are you using. Here is the link to Cold Smoked Polish on the mother site. As you will see, it specifies cure #2. It would seem that cold smoked sausages are dried rather than cooked. I too would be cautious of cure #1 and not hot smoking them.
http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-re ... old-smoked
I have not yet tried this recipe, and am anxious to hear what the experts say. My experience with cold smoking has been on cheese and applying smoke to sausages that are hot cooked.
I still have lots to learn!
Jim
This is a copy and paste of the text from the link that the two kids from MN posted
The pictures wouldn't copy. But if you go to the link you get pictures.
Meat Smoking
Cold Smoking
Cold smoking at 52-71° F (12-22° C), from 1-14 days, applying thin smoke with occasional breaks in between, is one of the oldest preservation methods. We cannot produce cold smoke if the outside temperature is 90° F (32° C), unless we can cool it down, which is what some industrial smokers do. Cold smoking is a drying process whose purpose is to remove moisture thus preserving a product.
You will find that different sources provide different temperatures for cold smoking. In European countries where most of the cold smoking is done, the upper temperature is accepted as 86° F (30° C). The majority of Russian, Polish and German meat technology books call for 71° F (22° C), some books ask for 77° F (25° C). Fish starts to cook at 85° F (29.4° C) and if you want to make delicious cold smoked salmon that is smoked for a long time, obviously you can not exceed 86° F (30° C). Cold smoking assures us of total smoke penetration inside of the meat. The loss of moisture also is uniform in all areas and the total weight loss falls within 5-20% depending largely on the smoking time. Cold smoking is not a continuous process, it is stopped (no smoke) a few times to allow fresh air into the smoker.
In XVIII century brick built smokehouses a fire was started every morning. It smoldered as long as it could and if it stopped, it would be restarted again the following morning.
Cold smoked meats prevent or slow down the spoilage of fats, which increases their shelf life. The product is drier and saltier with a more pronounced smoky flavor and very long shelf life. The color varies from yellow to dark brown on the surface and dark red inside. Cold smoked products are not submitted to the cooking process. If you want to cold smoke your meats, bear in mind that with the exception of people living in areas with a cold climate like Alaska, it will have to be done in the winter months just as it was done 500 years ago.
Cold smoking at its best. Smoking continues through the night.
Photos courtesy Waldemar Kozik.
Using dry wood is of utmost importance when cold smoking. It is recommended to keep wood chips in a well defined single pile as they will have less contact with air, thus will smoke better without creating unnecessary flames and heat. By following these rules we achieve 75-85% humidity, creating the best conditions for moisture removal. Once the moisture content drops low enough, the salt present in the meat will further inhibit the development of bacteria and the products can hang in the air for months losing more moisture as time goes by.
Lox (smoked salmon) is smoked with cold smoke for an extended period of time. Applying hotter smoke (over 84° F, 28° C) will just cook the fish, the flavor will change and we will not be able to slice it so thin anymore. Cold smoking is a slow process and the hams, which lend themselves perfectly to this type of smoking, can be smoked from 2 to even 6 weeks. During smoking they will slowly be acquiring a golden color along with a smoky flavor.
Cold smoking allows us total smoke penetration inside of the meat. Very little hardening of the outside surface of the meat or casing occurs and smoke penetrates the meat easily.
Hot smoking dries out the surface of the meat creating a barrier for smoke penetration
Who We Are
Contact Us
Photos
Forum
Polish Site
Copyright © 2012 Wedliny Domowe
The pictures wouldn't copy. But if you go to the link you get pictures.
Meat Smoking
Cold Smoking
Cold smoking at 52-71° F (12-22° C), from 1-14 days, applying thin smoke with occasional breaks in between, is one of the oldest preservation methods. We cannot produce cold smoke if the outside temperature is 90° F (32° C), unless we can cool it down, which is what some industrial smokers do. Cold smoking is a drying process whose purpose is to remove moisture thus preserving a product.
You will find that different sources provide different temperatures for cold smoking. In European countries where most of the cold smoking is done, the upper temperature is accepted as 86° F (30° C). The majority of Russian, Polish and German meat technology books call for 71° F (22° C), some books ask for 77° F (25° C). Fish starts to cook at 85° F (29.4° C) and if you want to make delicious cold smoked salmon that is smoked for a long time, obviously you can not exceed 86° F (30° C). Cold smoking assures us of total smoke penetration inside of the meat. The loss of moisture also is uniform in all areas and the total weight loss falls within 5-20% depending largely on the smoking time. Cold smoking is not a continuous process, it is stopped (no smoke) a few times to allow fresh air into the smoker.
In XVIII century brick built smokehouses a fire was started every morning. It smoldered as long as it could and if it stopped, it would be restarted again the following morning.
Cold smoked meats prevent or slow down the spoilage of fats, which increases their shelf life. The product is drier and saltier with a more pronounced smoky flavor and very long shelf life. The color varies from yellow to dark brown on the surface and dark red inside. Cold smoked products are not submitted to the cooking process. If you want to cold smoke your meats, bear in mind that with the exception of people living in areas with a cold climate like Alaska, it will have to be done in the winter months just as it was done 500 years ago.
Cold smoking at its best. Smoking continues through the night.
Photos courtesy Waldemar Kozik.
Using dry wood is of utmost importance when cold smoking. It is recommended to keep wood chips in a well defined single pile as they will have less contact with air, thus will smoke better without creating unnecessary flames and heat. By following these rules we achieve 75-85% humidity, creating the best conditions for moisture removal. Once the moisture content drops low enough, the salt present in the meat will further inhibit the development of bacteria and the products can hang in the air for months losing more moisture as time goes by.
Lox (smoked salmon) is smoked with cold smoke for an extended period of time. Applying hotter smoke (over 84° F, 28° C) will just cook the fish, the flavor will change and we will not be able to slice it so thin anymore. Cold smoking is a slow process and the hams, which lend themselves perfectly to this type of smoking, can be smoked from 2 to even 6 weeks. During smoking they will slowly be acquiring a golden color along with a smoky flavor.
Cold smoking allows us total smoke penetration inside of the meat. Very little hardening of the outside surface of the meat or casing occurs and smoke penetrates the meat easily.
Hot smoking dries out the surface of the meat creating a barrier for smoke penetration
Who We Are
Contact Us
Photos
Forum
Polish Site
Copyright © 2012 Wedliny Domowe
Ross- tightwad home cook
Hi Kozulich.
If you have used Cure #1 correctly and your hygiene is up to scratch, you should have no worries.
Where I live( sub-tropics) it is impossible to really cold smoke, I just persevere and cold smoke as low as possible. The end result is always better than the crap for sale in the shops.
Once I forgot to check the smoker temp and it went up to about 70C.
The csabai were still great to eat, flavour and texture OK, just different.
Keep on using cure the correct way. You will be OK.
Regards,
Jan.
If you have used Cure #1 correctly and your hygiene is up to scratch, you should have no worries.
Where I live( sub-tropics) it is impossible to really cold smoke, I just persevere and cold smoke as low as possible. The end result is always better than the crap for sale in the shops.
Once I forgot to check the smoker temp and it went up to about 70C.
The csabai were still great to eat, flavour and texture OK, just different.
Keep on using cure the correct way. You will be OK.
Regards,
Jan.
No, I'm using the recipe from pages 94-95 of "Polish Sausages Authentic Recipes and Instructions". It definitely calls for cure #1 or peklosol.two_MN_kids wrote: What recipe of Stan's are you using. Here is the link to Cold Smoked Polish on the mother site. As you will see, it specifies cure #2. It would seem that cold smoked sausages are dried rather than cooked. I too would be cautious of cure #1 and not hot smoking them.
kozulich
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Chuckwagon
- Veteran
- Posts: 4494
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 04:51
- Location: Rocky Mountains
Hi Kozulich,
Cold smoking is a drying process usually involving many hours for several days or even weeks. On the other hand, hot-smoking is a smoking-prep cooking process usually finished relatively shortly (within hours). To ensure a constant breakdown of nitrate into nitrite in cold-smoking sausages, Cure #2 is most often used. However, occasionally in some comminuted sausage, the use of Cure #1 may be specified. Cold-smoked products are not usually smoked continuously as fresh air is usually allowed into the smoker at regular intervals to allow time for complete penetration of smoke deep into muscle tissues. As moisture leaves the meat, the product will become naturally rigid.
Because cold-smoked meat and fish products are not cooked, cold smoking is an entirely contrasting process from hot-smoking as the heat source is remote and the smoke is "piped" into the smokehouse from several feet away, giving the smoke time to cool down. Most often, the cold-smokehouse is elevated higher than the heat source, or the smoke is forced inside by a fan.
Because fish begins to cook at 85°F. (30°C.), the temperature in most American "cold-smoke houses" is less than 85° F. (29°C.) and often much lower in order to prevent spoilage. In Russia and many parts of Europe, the upper limit has been 71°F. (22°C.).
Cold-smoked products must contain nitrite or nitrate/nitrite cures to be safe because even using thin smoke, oxygen is cut off and most obligate anaerobic bacteria, some facultative anaerobic bacteria, and even some microaerophile bacteria may thrive. Never cold-smoke fresh sausage or any meat product without using a curing agent.
Some dry-cured (raw) sausages are held for weeks in cold-smoke while they continue to dehydrate safely below .85 Aw. Initially they are protected from pathogenic bacteria by the sausage`s salt content. This affords their only protection while the lactic acid is being produced by lactobacilli and pediococci bacteria. Additionally, some semi-dry cured sausages may be cold-smoked after they have been prep-cooked. Again, although cold smoking is not a continuous process, it usually assures deep smoke penetration. It is usually discontinued overnight, allowing fresh air to assist with the uniform loss of moisture.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
Cold smoking is a drying process usually involving many hours for several days or even weeks. On the other hand, hot-smoking is a smoking-prep cooking process usually finished relatively shortly (within hours). To ensure a constant breakdown of nitrate into nitrite in cold-smoking sausages, Cure #2 is most often used. However, occasionally in some comminuted sausage, the use of Cure #1 may be specified. Cold-smoked products are not usually smoked continuously as fresh air is usually allowed into the smoker at regular intervals to allow time for complete penetration of smoke deep into muscle tissues. As moisture leaves the meat, the product will become naturally rigid.
Because cold-smoked meat and fish products are not cooked, cold smoking is an entirely contrasting process from hot-smoking as the heat source is remote and the smoke is "piped" into the smokehouse from several feet away, giving the smoke time to cool down. Most often, the cold-smokehouse is elevated higher than the heat source, or the smoke is forced inside by a fan.
Because fish begins to cook at 85°F. (30°C.), the temperature in most American "cold-smoke houses" is less than 85° F. (29°C.) and often much lower in order to prevent spoilage. In Russia and many parts of Europe, the upper limit has been 71°F. (22°C.).
Cold-smoked products must contain nitrite or nitrate/nitrite cures to be safe because even using thin smoke, oxygen is cut off and most obligate anaerobic bacteria, some facultative anaerobic bacteria, and even some microaerophile bacteria may thrive. Never cold-smoke fresh sausage or any meat product without using a curing agent.
Some dry-cured (raw) sausages are held for weeks in cold-smoke while they continue to dehydrate safely below .85 Aw. Initially they are protected from pathogenic bacteria by the sausage`s salt content. This affords their only protection while the lactic acid is being produced by lactobacilli and pediococci bacteria. Additionally, some semi-dry cured sausages may be cold-smoked after they have been prep-cooked. Again, although cold smoking is not a continuous process, it usually assures deep smoke penetration. It is usually discontinued overnight, allowing fresh air to assist with the uniform loss of moisture.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! 
OK thanks. The odd seeming thing about the recipe I'm using is that it specifies a pretty short cold-smoking time. Just 1-2 days of drying at relatively high humidity, and 1-1.5 days of cold smoking. Then some further drying at a lower humidity to reach 87% yield. So I've had a couple days of high humidity drying, and a couple days of cold smoking now. They still seem pretty soft, moist and raw. Does most of the drying happen in the third stage? There is no target time given for that stage.
kozulich
kozulich
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MnSausageGuy
- Newbie
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 16:27
- Location: Minnesota
Ok, so we have this meat market in the area who sells very good summer sausage. The way the guy who does the smoking is 4 hours of smoke,lets the fire go out, next day 4 hours again, and the third day 4 hours again. My question is how does he achieve an internal temp this way? I suppose the last day they temp probe to make sure, but is this safe to do it this way?
This is the recipe and method that I would trust. http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-re ... er-sausage
As to your local sausage maker there may be things that he isn't telling. Like, how thick is the smoke? How hot is the smoke? Does he monitor the IT?
As to your local sausage maker there may be things that he isn't telling. Like, how thick is the smoke? How hot is the smoke? Does he monitor the IT?
Ross- tightwad home cook
