Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by Lonster » Tue Mar 10, 2020 01:45

StefanS. How was the flavor? Taste like Italy? With the new starter culture.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by StefanS » Wed Mar 11, 2020 00:06

Lonster wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 01:45
StefanS. How was the flavor? Taste like Italy? With the new starter culture.
Hi Lonster. Product with "Taste of Italy" still in curing chamber. I took some samples but can not give any review yet. One thing is sure - it is fast working starter even in lower temperatures of fermenting.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by YooperDog » Thu Mar 26, 2020 15:16

Great thread! I have been working on two curing chambers to start learning and making some salami's and cured meats. Great info and motivation.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by SMR » Fri Apr 24, 2020 18:09

My Fiocco's have reached 25% weight loss and I am ready to apply sugna. I have rice flower and Crisco (vegetable shortening). I just did a bit of research and see that it is actually a 50/50 by weight blend of rice flour and pork lard. Does anyone have an opinion on whether Crisco can be substituted for Lard in this type of application?

It seems to me like it should work fine since its purpose is to provide a less permeable moisture barrier on the portions of the Fiocco not covered by fat. But I would appreciate any input from those with prior sugna experience.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by StefanS » Fri Dec 25, 2020 22:18

During my adventures with fermented, cured and matured meats i start to get some suspicious thoughts that not everything is working like commercial technologies, scientific papers, and books are telling. One of my suspicious was that CNS Staphylococcus strains not limited to work below pH 5.0 or lower than 10*C (50F). Another thought - that temp. around 12*C (55F) is shutdown LAB fermentation process. In other words - if you are fermenting salami at (example) - 22 *C (72F) at it reach pH 5.2 after 40 hours so moving them to curing chamber at 12 *C will seize fermentation and salamis will stay at that acidity level. (G. Feiner. - [ .....] "temperature inside fermentation room is reduced to 10-12 *C as the LAB stop fermenting sugars into lactic acid at such low temperatures. The remaining sugar is then used for development of color and flavor ". pg 157
As I start to not agree with that statement - so some days ago i start to make some experiment...
meats - lean trims from hams, pork butts, loins (lean to fat % ratio - 80/20_ - 7.1 kg -( 7.5 mm grinder plate)
trims from hams, loins butts - (80/20) - 3.3 kg (4.5 mm plate)
fatty trims from hams, pork belly, jowls, fat back - (30/70 - lean to fat) - 3.5 kg ( 10mm plate)
beef - very lean - 2.5 kg
22.5 g/kg - sea salt
2.5 g/kg cure #2
Black pepper (coarse) - 2 g/kg
Kubab pepper - coarse 1g/kg
nutmeg - 0.5 g/kg
garlic granulated - 3 g/kg
cardamom - 0.2 g/kg
Chinese five spices - 0.5 g/kg
dextrose - 2 g/kg
demerara sugar - 2 g/kg
Curing, mixing, grinding took me 5 days. During these days meats were in refrigerator (2-6*C) or some hours in garage temperature (10-11 *C).
Above listed meats and process are like base for my experiment.
DSC_0359.JPG
Then I took 2.5 kg of that batter for my fanny thing. Rest of it has been divided for 4 same parts (by the weight).
#1 - no culture starter. to this part i added just 10 g/kg whole color pepper corns + 2 g/kg herb pepper (polish mix).
#2 - starter Texel DCM1 - (Staph. vitulinus, S. cornosus) - no any other additions
#3 - starter Bactoferm T-LC, spice mix (khmeli suneli) added at 1 g/kg
#4 - starter Bactoferm B-LC 007 used and fennel seeds 1 g/kg + 50 ml of mead ( for 3.5 kg of meats).
DSC_0368.JPG
Laminated hog casings (3.25" x 15 ") used. For each type of salami i got 2 batons of batter plus leftovers from horn for measuring acidity probes.
Other words, I got 8 bats (2 of each). Leftovers also were divided for 8 probes (two of each salami).
One bat and one probe of each salami were fermented in temp. 22-23*C and 90+% humidity> second part (one baton and one probe were fermented at garage temperature of 8-10 *C and 90 % humidity).
DSC_0373.JPG
So I got - same meats, same process, same sugars, same spices, same casings. Differences - touching spices/herbs, starter cultures. Two different fermenting temperatures.
After 24 hours:
Fermentation at 22*C Fermentation at 8-10*C
#1/1 - pH 5.01/5.05 #1/2 - pH 5.33/5.36
#2/1 - pH 5.08/509 #2/2 - pH 5.42/5.48
#3/1 - pH 4.92/4.92 #3/2 pH 5.36/5.33
#4/1 - pH 4.75/4.82 #4/2 - pH 5.39/5.38

After 38 hours
#1/1 - pH 4.92/4.98 #1/2 - pH 5.22
#2/1 - pH 5.08/5.02 #2/2 - pH 5.26
#3/1 -pH 4.92/4.91 #3/2 - pH 5.10
#4/1 pH 4.75/4.74 # 4/2 - pH 5.14

After 48 hours
at 22*C practically no changes in acidity level #1/2 - pH 5.09/5.08
so i Have decided to transfer them to curing #2/2 - pH 5.16/5.15
chamber # 3/2 - pH 4.99/4.96
#4/2 - pH 4.92/4.94

After 72 hours
(at 24 hours in temp of curing chamber
(12 *C and 80% humidity)
#1/1 - pH 4.99/4.94 #1/2 - pH 4.99/5.00
#2/1 - pH 5.03/5.03 #2/2 - pH 5.08/5.07
#3/1 - pH 4.94/4.95 #3/2 - pH 4.94/4.95
#4/1 - pH 4.75/4.73 #4/2 - pH 4.80/4.85
** two measurements because were used 2 pehameters
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At that time all batons transferred to curing/maturing chamber for normal maturing temperatures - 12-14*C and 78-82 % of humidity.
DSC_0426.JPG
Fanny part - when i took off 2.5 kg of batter. I added additional 3 g/kg dextrose and 3 g/kg demerara sugar + 100 g/2.5 kg dried tart cherries + 10 g/2.5 kg dried cranberries (no sugar added) + 25 g/2.5 kg sunflower seeds unsalted. I have used also starter culture Texel Sa 306.
That batter devided in two parts and tightly packed in rectangle meat press.
DSC_0366.JPG
One bigger (1.5 kg) fermented in 22-23*C. smaller (1 kg) fermented in 8-10*C.
after 24 hours - bigger pH 4.71/4.68 smaller - pH 5.31/5.33
38 hours - bigger - pH 4.57/4.63 smaller - pH 5.13
48 hours - bigger - pH 4.61 smaller - pH 4.92/4.94
72 hours - bigger - pH 4.57/4.61 smaller - pH 4.79/4.82
Then batter removed from press and overwrapped (bigger in pasted hog sheets, smaller in hog blander).
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It is end of my 1-st step. Further experiments needed. As today - fermentation is taking place in lower temperatures also, it just taking longer. From my point of view LAB fermenting until they have "food".
Second part - determination of rising pH during maturing process.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by jens49 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:10

That is great information. Maybe it is best to skip heat ferment and go straight to drying chamber. Slower ferment should be good for color and flavour. No problems with Staph. Looking forward to step II.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by StefanS » Sun Dec 27, 2020 15:22

During preparing meats to Holiday season i've made some 2 hams to my curing chamber.
!. large ham - cut same as Culatello, cured with 31.5 g/kg sea salt, 3.5 g/kg cure #2, Sodium erythrobate - 0.5 g/kg, dextrose 1 g/kg, coarse black pepper, granulated garlic (2 tsp each per two hams)
2. small ham - as above.
Cured in EQ 13 days. After that mix of starters (Texel Sa 306 + SafePro B-SF 43 (2g+2 g ) used. Packed and tied - Small ham in hog bladder, large ham in double hog bladders. Then large ham have been cold smoked by 3 days (average 10 hours/day). During resting period in garage ham have been pressed. some pictures -
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by StefanS » Sun Dec 27, 2020 16:03

jens49 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:10
That is great information. Maybe it is best to skip heat ferment and go straight to drying chamber. Slower ferment should be good for color and flavour. No problems with Staph. Looking forward to step II.
it is one of my conclusions also, but.....
salami #1 #2 - both salamis used to pick-up ingenious LAB. For myself it was surprise that happened that fast. On other hand - process of preparing these meats was extended to 5 days so LAB in all meats have enough time to multiply (lag phase). Also during these days I have processed around 150 kg (300 LB) meats (kielbasa, wedzonki, (smoked meats), preparing cuts, grinding), also i used same rooms for processing sauerkraut, cheese, etc.
salami #2 - addition of Staph has something to do with a little different fermentation by LAB.
All salamis - LAB fermenting sugars until it is present in mince. Lower temperature just slowing them but not stop them. Keep in mind that example Lactobacillus curvatus - they start multiply at 4*C (39F). Staphylococcus vitulinus is working near freezing point.
I'm keeping in mind that it is home experiment, not laboratory equipment, But it is showing that our hobby is different from commercial process.
Still working on other conclusions.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by EAnna » Tue Dec 29, 2020 00:11

StefanS wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 16:03
jens49 wrote: ↑Yesterday, 2020 11:10
That is great information. Maybe it is best to skip heat ferment and go straight to drying chamber. Slower ferment should be good for color and flavour. No problems with Staph. Looking forward to step II.
it is one of my conclusions also, but.....
It is not good idea IMHO.
Why not? Don't forget about microbiological warfare at the start of fermentation.
The lactic acid role should be estimated and appreciated.
Best regards
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by Albertaed » Tue Dec 29, 2020 00:40

Beautiful
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by redzed » Wed Dec 30, 2020 06:41

Very useful expriments and some revealing results. I was surprised at the speed of the fermentation in the #1 and #2 group. I'm not surprised at the pH numbers because there is more than enough sugar in there. I was able to get the pH down to 5.1 with 2g/kg of dextrose and no starter. It shows just how wrong so many of the published recipes are. Many ask for 6-10g/kg of sugars. Makes you wonder if the authors actually made the salami in their recipes. Staph. vitulins does occur natually in meat and it is interesting that DCM1 is the only starter available to us where it's included. Chr. Hanser promotes the starter Flora Italia as having pH resistant Staphylococci strains, but in reviewing the spec sheets, there is no technical info there on the two carnosus strains, and how well they multiply when the pH drops to <5.
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by StefanS » Sat Jan 02, 2021 15:25

Just some cuts prepared for New Year Eve.. :D
cured matured whole meats:
ham with fat (yummy)
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Culatello-
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Basturma (beef eye round - tasty, hot)
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Beef - inside round - (look at that marble )
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Three plates with cuts - (in friends opinion - Delicioso)
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Attachments
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by MatterOne » Sat Jan 02, 2021 16:40

Looks delicious!
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by EAnna » Tue Jan 19, 2021 23:34

StefanS wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 22:18
As I start to not agree with that statement - so some days ago i start to make some experiment...
According to above post i would like to introduce You the results @StefanS experiments.
Low temp ferment.jpg
Warm ferment.jpg
samples #1.jpg
samples #2.jpg
samples #3.jpg
samples #4.jpg
What do You think about it?
Best regards
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Re: Cured, dried and fermented by StefanS

Post by StefanS » Tue Jan 19, 2021 23:51

BTW - EAnna (and polish site) got more data from myself on that experiment than I have posted here.....
Anyway - I'm very thankful for preparing and posting these graphs.
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