Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

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Winterchrome
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Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by Winterchrome » Mon Dec 09, 2019 04:45

Hello, I am new to this forum and dry curing. I am have enjoyed reading this forum to learn about the process. I have made bacon and pancetta in the past and now have my first coppa drying in Umai bags in the fridge. My question concerns cure #2. I have 2 different cure #2s, one contains 1% sodium nitrate and the second contains 4% sodium nitrate. Are these different cure #2s for different purposes/uses? Are they interchangeable at the prescribed cure #2 rate of 0.25%/weight?
Thanks in advance.
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Bob K
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by Bob K » Mon Dec 09, 2019 16:08

The short answer is you can use either one interchangeably. The amount of nitrate in cure #2 is proprietary and will vary with the source. It vary' s between 1 and 4%
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by Butterbean » Mon Dec 09, 2019 18:05

What Bob said. Use common sense, follow the label, and don't fall prey to that nitrate scare because things aren't as bad as some would have you believe especially when you consider the fact that tests have shown that some nitrate-free bacon sold in stores as "more healthy" have ten times the allowable limits of nitrates in them but since the added nitrate was derived from a plant it somehow does not matter and is somehow better than minuscule amounts we use when curing meats. :roll:
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by jcflorida » Mon Dec 09, 2019 21:15

Some 6 years ago, I asked The Sausage Maker about the 1% Sodium Nitrate in their instacure #2 while many references including their own FAQ and other manufacturers use 3.67% to 4% Sodium Nitrate. I got a response that, at best was non-norishing or at worst, they claimed that 4% was a typo in their FAQ.

Here is a copy of their email and my subsequent reply:

From: Miroslaw Stanuszek [mailto:mstan@sausagemaker.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:27 PM
To: ------------------------------------------
Subject: Nitrate levels - The Sausage Maker, Inc.


Hi John,

Regarding the Nitrate vs Nitrite quantities in Cure#2:
Sodium Nitrite is in the amount of 6.25% which equals 1oz/lb of Total Cure
Sodium Nitrate is in the amount of 1% which equals 0.16oz/lb of Total Cure <---- this is at odds with the 0.64oz/lb or 4% which is in the FAQ (as you wrote).

The problem here is either the standardized nitrate amounts have changed some time ago and only 1% is necessary...so the info in the Cure section of the FAQ is outdated. Or they have increased (VERY UNLIKELY) and our cure amounts are under the recommended amount. The latter is unlikely because the facility that makes Cures is very much standardized and closely monitored by USDA/FDA.

Can you tell me where have you seen 4% nitrate used (aside from our FAQ)? It is likely an old typo that hasn't been updated..

Thank you John, I'll gladly look deeper into this,


--

Sincerely,
Miroslaw "Mac" Stanuszek
R & D
The SausageMaker, Inc.
716.824.5814 ext.512
mstan@sausagemaker.com

From: --------------------------------------------------
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 6:10 PM
To: 'Miroslaw Stanuszek'
Subject: RE: Nitrate levels - The Sausage Maker, Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mac,

Thanks for the reply, but I guess I remain somewhat confused. Then again, I didn't get sick using the cure. M of the descriptions of Cure #2 / Prague Powder #2, Insta cure #2 do not give the percentage of sodium nitrate, but attached are several that quote the 4% number. I have no way of determining the veracity of these folks, hence the confusion.

S. Marianski, A. Marianski, "The Art of Making Fermented Sausage", pg240

R. Kutas, "Great Sausage Making and Meat Curing" pg 37

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sausage_making . . . see sixth paragraph in section entitled "Cures: sodium and potassium nitrite and nitrate"

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/curi ... age-making . . . see first paragraph in box entitled "Cure#2"

John




There was no further response from Sausage Maker, but since it's now 6 years later, I have to assume that 1% is OK. FWIW, I make sure that the Cure#2 that I use contains the higher percentage Nitrate but that's just me.
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by Winterchrome » Tue Dec 10, 2019 04:27

Thanks so much for the responses to my question. Glad I’m not the only who has run across this question. Its good to know that both can be used interchangeably and it is interesting to learn that there is no definitive answer.
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by redzed » Tue Dec 10, 2019 06:54

If you add 2.5g of Cure #2 to 1kg of meat batter, 1% of nitrate in Cure #2 is only 26ppm. A negligible amount, not even worth ordering and using the stuff. The legal limit of nitrate in fermented and dry cured sausages in the US is 1718ppm! However, if you are using Umai and curing at fridge temp the 1% is probably the better choice. Nitrate is for all intents and purposes useless until it is converted to nitrite. This occurs with a reaction with nitrate reductase bacteria that is naturally occurring in the meat, and if you are using a starter by the Staphyllococcus bacteria. However, nitrate needs a temp of 6C or higher for this process to work. So you will have only a small window for this happen and that is when you ferment the salami for a couple of days. Once you place the salami into the fridge to dry, nothing will be happening. The main purpose of the nitrate in the Cure #2 formulation is to slowly convert to nitrite in the curing meats protecting them from unwanted bacteria and oxydation. But that is meant to take place at a temperature above 10C and not 2-3C.
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by redzed » Tue Dec 10, 2019 15:56

jcflorida wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 21:15
Some 6 years ago, I asked The Sausage Maker about the 1% Sodium Nitrate in their instacure #2 while many references including their own FAQ and other manufacturers use 3.67% to 4% Sodium Nitrate. I got a response that, at best was non-norishing or at worst, they claimed that 4% was a typo in their FAQ.
John, that is one convoluted response! I have been in touch with Mr. Stanuszek a few times and he was always a gentleman and very helpful. But the answer that he sent you is confusing and wrong. Curing formulations are not controlled by government. Only the ingoing amounts of nitrite/nitrate are. I think the Sausage Maker is the only vendor that sells Cure #2 with 1% nitrate.
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by Winterchrome » Tue Dec 10, 2019 18:17

redzed,
Thanks for the very helpful and useful info.
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by DanMcG » Wed Dec 11, 2019 09:37

After reading this, I started looking around and noticed Allied Kenco's #2 is also 1% nitrate, and on the other end of the scale Craft Butchers Pantry uses 6.4%...that's a heck of a range of NO3
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by redzed » Wed Dec 11, 2019 16:47

Thanks for that info Dan. I was not aware of the 6.4% content of nitrate in the CBP version of Cure #2. That is one formulation that I would not recommend when drying in the Umai bags. Because Umai is dried at fridge temps you would risk having high residual levels of nitrate in the finished product. But for some fermented/dry cured products that are matured over an extended period of time it will be great. I occassionaly add a small amount of pure KN03 in addition to Cure#2 to products that mature for more than 3 months.
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by Bob K » Wed Dec 11, 2019 18:08

For the purpose of discussion even the 6.4% of nitrate is only a small percentage of the allowable amount in a commuted product. You are allowed 156ppm of in going nitrite and 1718 ppm of nitrate. There is more nitrate in a serving of spinach than than the residual amount in a sausage.
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by redzed » Thu Dec 12, 2019 04:01

The amounts of nitrate allowed in dry cured products in the Excited States are himalayas above what is permitted in other jurisdictions. In the EU it's 500ppm and in Canada only 200ppm. So who is right?
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by DanMcG » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:22

redzed wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 04:01
In the EU it's 500ppm and in Canada only 200ppm. So who is right?
Thanks, I wasn't aware of this.
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by Jeff M » Tue Apr 20, 2021 07:26

I just recently started making Salami, and two days ago decided to try the Saucisson de L’Ardéche recipe listed on the MeatsandSausages web site. As I was gathering all my ingredients, I balked at the amount of garlic it called for, so did some searching and ran across another post on this site that mentioned others with the same concern and cutting the garlic in half. So I chose to do the same.

I do also remember thinking that the amount of cure was was a little much, but didn't question it, and made that batch of Saucisson de L’Ardéche with 5 grams of Cure #2 per kg of meat (I got this Cure #2 from The Sausage Maker).

Now rereading some of that post I do see someone mentioning that is double the amount that should be called for.
So my question is how safe will the Salami be in 8 weeks time? I do live here in the Excited States (I liked that BTW).
My curing chamber is at 55 degrees F. and 80% humidity, and I used 65mm and 76mm casings, so I figure 8-10 weeks to get 40% weight loss.

Thanks for any help/insight on this!
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Re: Cure #2 with different percent of sodium nitrate

Post by redzed » Tue Apr 20, 2021 16:57

Yes 5g/kg of nitrite works out to 312ppm and double the recommended USDA amount. The Sausagemaker Cure 2 formulation has only only 1% nitrate and that amount works out to 52ppm, quite negligible when the USDA limit is 1718. The amount of the Cure #2 in the recipe is obviously an error. However, I don't think you have to be overly concerned about eating the saucisson. After 10 weeks of aging most of the nitrite will have been converted to nitric oxide and there will be very little left. In most instances if you add 2.5g/kg of Cure 2 to a salami type product the residual amount of nitrite after several weeks is less than 10ppm, so even if you have 20ppm left, you will still be under the 50ppm amount on residual nitrite that the USADA considers safe. Read the paragraph on the bottom of the page in this link how much nitrite you can safely consume.
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