Newbee with some questions

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Stinnerfest
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Newbee with some questions

Post by Stinnerfest » Sat Feb 11, 2023 18:03

I am quite new to fermented sausage making and am willing to learn from all of the members. I am a rookie. I have made Two batches with T-SPX. Hungarian Salami and Chorizo. Both fermented and dried (drying). Both recipes came from Eric @ Two Guys and a cooler. (Using Umai)


The Hungarian used .2% each of Dextrose and table sugar. Checked PH at 45 hours (1st time)and it was at 4.88. A little low as I was looking for 5.0-5.2. Learned I had to check it earlier to monitor ph so I could end fermentation at the right PH.

The Chorizo also had .2% of Dextrose and table sugar. (I added the table sugar to this recipe on my own based on the Hungarian Salame recipe). I also used 2% nonfat dry milk (the high temp) in this recipe. 1st ph check was at 24 hours at 5.3. At 26 hours I was at 5.17 and I pulled it. Very quick.

Was the accelerated time line to correct ph due to the nonfat dry milk? I read it is about 50% lactose (after I completed the fermentation on the Chorizo.

Did I overfeed the culture?

Will the quick 26hr timeline to 5.17ph for T-SPX affect the final product?

Any and all comments by the group will be greatly appreciated.

Phil
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Re: Newbee with some questions

Post by Butterbean » Sun Feb 12, 2023 20:49

Redzed is more knowledgeable on fermenting than me but yes, you added more sugar from the milk and the table sugar and you could have picked some up from paprika if you used this. Did you over feed? I wouldn't say that. You just missed your target and I suspect you'll see an increase in pH with time as it dries. I wouldn't worry about it because it will surely taste good.
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Re: Newbee with some questions

Post by Indaswamp » Mon Feb 20, 2023 17:13

From my experience, 0.3g/kg. dextrose will lower the pH 0.1. That works for slow acting culture that do not contain pediococcus acidialactici bacteria. For cultures containing this bacteria, use 0.25g./kg. dextrose to lower pH 0.1.
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Re: Newbee with some questions

Post by Stinnerfest » Thu Feb 23, 2023 01:54

Thanks a lot!

I have a stupid question. So 0.3gr/kg dextrose lowers ph .1. For example from 5.6 to 5.5?
Or is it 5.6 to 4.6. I used to be great at math…lol.

Thanks

Phil
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Re: Newbee with some questions

Post by redzed » Sat Feb 25, 2023 18:19

The following was posted earlier on this forum in this discussion: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8529&sid=96c6ee0229 ... 9c0dbbb028

What is needed in this discussion is to put into perspective that pH is measured on a logarithmic scale, rather than a linear scale. To begin with, let`s review a number of sources, that are considered credible, as to how much sugar we need to add to a meat batter to reach the desired pH.

Let`s start with Stan Marianski , who already was quoted in this thread by jens49: About 1 g (0.1%) of dextrose per 1 kg of meat lowers pH of meat by 0.1 pH. This means that 10 g of dextrose added to meat with initial pH value of 5.9 will lower pH by one full unit to 4.9. Sugar levels of 0.5% - 0.7% are usually added for reducing pH levels to just under 5.0.

Fidel Toldra writes in Dry-Cured Meat Products:
The type of carbohydrate must be carefully chosen since it affects the rate of pH drop. It must be chosen based on the temperature of fermentation, the ability of the strain to ferment it (Table 5.1) and the totaltime of processing. The amount of carbohydrate added will affect the extent of pH drop. Approximately 1% sugar will yield a reduction of about 1 pH unit during fermentation.(p.93)
In general, the amount of sugar may vary between 0.5 and 1 % but may reach 2% in some semi-dry fermented sausages. Glucose and saccharose are metabolized quickly and ensure a rapid acidification. Lactose follows at a slower rate than glucose. Dextrines or starch are metabolized slowly and their use is recommended for long ripening sausages. (p.6)

Ockerman and Basu explain it this way: Simple sugars such as glucose (dextrose, 0.5 to 1%, a minimum of 0.75% is often recommended) which is the fermentation substrate can be readily used by all lactic acid bacteria. The quantity of sugar influences the rate and extent of acidulation, and also contributes favorably to flavour, texture, and yield properties. The amount of dextrose added, up to ~ 0.7%, will directly influence the final product pH and additional sugar will not decrease pH further since bacterial cultures can not grow in excess acid. (p.120)

Gerhard Feiner also uses the 10g equals 1 point pH drop correlation: Generally, 1 g (or 0.1%) of dextrose added per 1 kg of salami lowers the pH by 0.1 pH unit, which is equal to reducing the pH by 1 unit when adding 1%, or 10 g, of dextrose per 1 kg of salami. Therefore, 8-10 g of dextrose reduces the pH in salami from around 5.7 to around 4.6-4.8, which is frequently the
final pH desired. Similar declines in pH value can be achieved by adding 7 g of dextrose or 2-4 g of lactose. (p.125)

So the common thread in all of the above is 10g of dextrose will lower the pH by one point. But all refer to lowering the pH to 4.6 - 4.8, and not from 5.7 - 5.8 to 5.2 - 5.3. The reason for that is that we don`t need as much sugar to lower the pH from those higher levels. 1 gram of dextrose will not lower the pH by .1 and 2 grams will not lower it by .2. Being a logarithmic measurement, pH is not linear and is not directly proportional to the acid concentration. Let`s take a look at the graph in this link. While not specific to pH measurement, it demonstrates the difference between the logarithmic and linear scales:
https://www.cs.sfu.ca/~tamaras/digitalA ... thmic.html

So now we know that we can add 7-10g of dextrose when we want a to make a Scandinavian style salami or an American summer sausage. But when making a mild flavoured editerranean style sausage 3g usually enough with slow fermentation. And even then it sometimes can be too much as many of us have discovered with B-LC-007. While the amount of sugar will ultimately determine the acidity of the salami, there are other factors to consider. One important one is fat content. Lactic acid will not metabolize fat so salami with a high red meat content will require more sugar and less when there is a high proportion of fat. Furthermore, using the same amount of fermentable sugar, pH will drop to a lower value in a fast fermentation than in a slow fermentation using the same strain. Better control of the fermentation process and better results can be achieved by using a combination of sugars which will slow the fermentation and still lower the pH to the desired level. Gerhard Feiner explains it this way:

The decline in pH value in the product depends largely on the type and amount of sugar introduced into salami in first place. Elevated levels of sugar leads generally to a stronger acidification and therefore lower pH values. To be fermented into lactic acid, sugars such as sucrose, lactose, and maltose must be broken down first into monosaccharide. Glucose, on the other hand, can be fermented directly into lactic acid and is therefore by far the most often applied form of sugar in fermented salami. The production and ratio of d- and l-lactic acid in the salami depends on the species of lactic acid chosen as being the starter culture. Sucrose is the second fastest fermentable sugar. Maltose and lactose require a considerably longer period of time for the glycosidic bonds in their molecules to be broken until fermentable monosaccharide are produced. In essence, all lactic acid bacteria (LAB) can ferment glucose into lactic acid. Sucrose can be fermented by around 85% of LAB, maltose by around 70% of LAB and lactose by only around 55%. Only around 30% of lactic acid bacteria ferment galactose into lactic acid. (pp125-126)

Lastly, let's take a look at Marianski`s salami recipes. They all call for 2-4 grams of sugar in traditional Southern European products. Toldra also points out that even naturally present Lactobacillus spp. ferment added sugars, generally between 2 and 4 g/kg of sausage mass, and in case the pH value tends to drop to levels below 5.3-5.2.

I hope this will help everyone to get a better grasp on the fermentation process and encourage more study and experimentation.
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Re: Newbee with some questions

Post by Stinnerfest » Wed Mar 01, 2023 21:46

Thanks a lot…Redzed😊

I’m trying to take a logical approach to beginning to learn about fermented and dried sausages.

1) Trying to stick with one culture T-SPX (for now) and learn to use it well. So that variable isn’t variable (😂lol)

2). Trying to learn the sugar piece of the equation with the hardest part figuring out the sugars included in different salami ingredients, aside from added dextrose and sucrose.

3). Does it make sense to measure the ph of the mince BEFORE sugars are added to feed the culture. Then add the sugars (dextrose and sucrose) based on the starting ph. Then remix the mince and monitor fermentation ph.

That’s all I got…for now

Phil
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Re: Newbee with some questions

Post by Coops » Thu Mar 30, 2023 06:56

My first batch was ready in just over 3 weeks, the mould 600 covered the whole salami very nicely but there is too much air flow in my chamber as they didn’t dry in a consistent manner. Im concerned the ink bird controllers aren’t accurate either. They were also very soft, tasted ok but the smell was terrible. As this is my first crack at salami making is the smell normal? I also used a starter culture but surely the smell should not want you to throw it away.
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Stinnerfest
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Re: Newbee with some questions

Post by Stinnerfest » Sun Apr 02, 2023 17:19

Thanks…since I’m using Umai, my chamber is my refrigerator…with complications. My fridge is in my basement and my basement runs about 55-60 degrees Fahrenheit and about 60-65% humidity. So with the basement temp at 55 degrees, my fridge doesn’t run as often and therefore humidity inside is high. (75%-90%). (When the fridge runs it reduces humidity). So the first couple weeks my sausages just sat there at about 8-9% loss. Virtually no movement in weight.

So I bought a computer fan and I had a timer. I set the fan at about 20% speed on the top shelf and pointed it at the top of the fridge on one side. I run the fan 20 minutes out of every hour and continuously for one full day a week. This has worked well for me. Still takes longer to dry the sausages but I think it’s better to dry them slowly. I also rotate the sausages daily.

The sausages are drying fine now at about 35% weight loss. I used cure #2 with both sausages and glad I did.

Phil
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Re: Newbee with some questions

Post by Stinnerfest » Sun Apr 02, 2023 17:27

6CE2BC96-CCAB-4917-8841-955C85E3829B.jpeg
6CE2BC96-CCAB-4917-8841-955C85E3829B.jpeg (30.15 KiB) Viewed 8302 times
This is the nub of Chorizo I used to test the ph at 43% weight loss.
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Re: Newbee with some questions

Post by Indaswamp » Tue May 16, 2023 02:44

I will also add that both hungarian salami and chorizo tend to use quite a bit of paprika powder. Paprika powder contains about 10% sugars so if you use 10 g./kg. you are adding 1g. of fermentable sugar to your salami paste. In which you probably only need about 1.5g/kg. of added sugars total to drop the pH below 5.3...
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