Mixing One Cure With Another

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Chuckwagon
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Mixing One Cure With Another

Post by Chuckwagon » Tue May 08, 2012 08:23

Our member and friend Nepas is a moderator of another forum and has asked a very important question that one of his members posted. As it surely concerns all of us, I am posting it for our members to read as well. Here's how I responded:

Hi Nepas, Nice to hear from you. Hope all is going well. Concerning your member with a question about cures,
You wrote:
It's a Sunday afternoon, you've prepared all your ingredients for 6lbs of salami, and you are out of, lost or dropped in the sink of soapy dishwater your last envelope of cure #2.
Now, you happen to have some cure #1 and some Morton's Tender Quick. Ok, I know - neither is a replacement for cure #2. But follow me on this...
Cure #2 is comprised of the following ratio of ingredients:
Salt /Nitrite /Nitrate
89.75% /6.25% /4%
Cure #1 is comprised of the following ratio of ingredients:
Salt /Nitrite
93.75% /6.25%
MTQ is comprised of the following ingredients:
Salt /Nitrite /Nitrate
99% /.5% /.5%
If your recipe called for 7 grams of Cure #2, you could expect the following amounts of Nitrite and Nitrate to exist in your final recipe-
Nitrate = 7 * 4% = .28g
Nitrite = 7 * 6.25% = .4375g
So, you need .28g of Nitrate for your recipe. To determine the total weight of MTQ needed to obtain .28g of Nitrate, you could use the following formula (this assumes that the percentage of Nitrate and Nitrite in MTQ are by weight and not volume):
Total MTQ Weight = Nitrate Needed/5%
MTQ = .28/.005 = 56g
So, 56g of MTQ will yield .28g of Nitrate. It will also yield .28 grams of Nitrite and 55.4 grams of salt (MTQ indicates that it also contains sugar, but if you examine the ratio of sodium weight in table salt to the sodium weight in MTQ, you will find that MTQ sodium levels are 99.5% of that of table salt effectively making the remaining ingredient in MTQ 100% salt).
You still need additional Nitrite, as the MTQ does not meet the level of nitrite after the nitrate levels are reached. You need a total of .4375g of nitrite for the recipe. .4375 - .28 = .1575 still needed.
Total of Cure #1 Weight = Nitrite Needed/6.25%
Cure #1 = .1575/.0625 = 2.52g
Now, by adding the MTQ and Cure #1, you would have met the requirement for Nitrite and Nitrate. Adding the Cure #1 also brings the total salt content up to 57.7625g. If your recipe calls for at least this amount or more salt you should be OK.
Can anyone offer a challenge as to why this would not work as a replacement for Cure #2?
To begin with, Mr. C.L. Griffith (Griffith Laboratories) would have had a fit if he had read this question. Griffith is the scientist who developed "pink salt" cure with equally distributed sodium nitrite and nitrate for accuracy in measuring the stuff. It is quickly dried on rollers after being placed on a salt carrier. His specific instructions were to NEVER mix either with one another or with any other product. Here`s just one good reason:

Morton`s Tender Quick™ contains 0.5 sodium nitrite, 0.5 sodium nitrate, salt, sugar, and propylene glycol (for brined meats). As far as I know, they make no mention of how much extra salt, sugar, and propylene glycol they use. I don't know because I don't use it. I just can't stand propylene glycol in my food. :roll:

What Is Propylene Glycol And Why You Should Avoid It. It is is a chemical found in personal care products that acts as a penetration enhancer that keeps products from melting in heat and/or freezing when it is cold. It is found in items such as shampoo, conditioner, soap, acne treatment, moisturizer, toothpaste, deodorant, nail polish, mascara; basically anything you could possibly use on your body, propylene glycol is in it. But why should you avoid propylene glycol?

For starters it alters the structure of the skin by allowing chemicals to penetrate deep beneath it while increasing their ability to reach the blood stream. Sounds lovely, right? So even if propylene glycol was good for you, it`s main job is to help any other chemicals you come in contact with reach your bloodstream. However, there is even more to it than just that...

How Toxic is Propylene Glycol? According to the Environmental Working Group, propylene glycol can cause a whole host of problems. It is rated a 4 by them, which is categorized as a "moderate" health issue. It has been shown to be linked to cancer, developmental/reproductive issues, allergies/immunotoxicity, neurotoxicity and endocrine disruption. It has been found to provoke skin irritation and sensitization in humans as low as 2% concentration, while the industry review panel recommends cosmetics can contain up to 50% of the substance.

How to Spot Propylene Glycol
When looking at ingredient lists, you can look for names like 1,2-Dihydroxypropane; 2-Hydroxypropanol; Methylethy Glycol; 1,2-Propanediol; Propane-1,2-Diol. I have access to a full list of 1,041 products containing propylene glycol if you`d like to have it.

I would in no way ever recommend mixing the two together for any reason whatsoever. Curing "pink salt" is not so expensive that it cannot be purchased in one or five pound amounts without having to pinch pennies by purchasing an "envelope" of the stuff. It doesn`t spoil or weaken if kept out of the light and away from moisture. On the "Sunday afternoon" he ran out, he should have placed the meat into the refrigerator and ordered some on Monday by Fed-Ex "overnight" or some other light-speed carrier. Really, shouldn`t any sausage maker have plenty of cure on hand if he is serious about the hobby? This guy could very well cause problems for someone else`s health if not his own. In my opinion, you ought to tell him NOT to mess with the stuff while considering giving up propylene glycol in his food.

Hope this has helped.
Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by ssorllih » Tue May 08, 2012 18:19

I sure am glad to have read this. Propylene glycol is used as antifreeze in RV's and boats for winterizing the water systems. I don't use it. I don't like the taste even after I have flushed the lines several times. Instead I use 100 proof vodka.
I have great problems with time constraints and deadlines. People make mistakes when they get rushed.
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Post by Chuckwagon » Wed May 09, 2012 03:43

Hey Ross, that's a good idea! I've been known to have flushed my lines out with Vodka myself during my reckless younger years! :shock:
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by ssorllih » Wed May 09, 2012 03:53

Commissioning the boat each spring can be a party. :roll:
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Post by JerBear » Fri Aug 03, 2012 02:59

I linked over to this post from another post asking if Morton's was interchangeable with DC #1 and read with interest the information on propylene glycol. Imagine my surprise when I looked at the ingredients list of some DC #1 I received from Butcher Packer today and saw that propylene glycol is the third ingredient, snuggled between the sodium nitrite and the red dye. Might be unavoidable in curing salt. Does anyone have a package from TSM they could check?
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Propylene glycol

Post by smik1 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 23:19

I know this has gone unanswered for a while now, and I'll do my best to leave it unanswered for a while longer.
Specifically, the TSM product in question.
However, a Yahoo search for propylene glycol "added to prevent caking" reveals that virtually every cure available has 1-2% propylene glycol added "to prevent caking?!? How would the chief ingredient in antifreeze prevent caking?
The cure packages on SausageMaker's website also show 2% propylene glycol, added as an "anti-caking" agent.
If we are avoiding propylene glycol, perhaps our cure should be sourced elsewhere.


Stan
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Re: Propylene glycol

Post by ssorllih » Thu Oct 24, 2013 00:57

smik1 wrote:I know this has gone unanswered for a while now, and I'll do my best to leave it unanswered for a while longer.
Specifically, the TSM product in question.
However, a Yahoo search for propylene glycol "added to prevent caking" reveals that virtually every cure available has 1-2% propylene glycol added "to prevent caking?!? How would the chief ingredient in antifreeze prevent caking?
The cure packages on SausageMaker's website also show 2% propylene glycol, added as an "anti-caking" agent.
If we are avoiding propylene glycol, perhaps our cure should be sourced elsewhere.


Stan
I really doubt that it will present a problem 156PPM is the limit on cure #1 in sausage 2% of that is a bit over 3PPM . ;)
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You sure?

Post by smik1 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 01:13

If the cure has 6.25% nitrate, and 2% propylene glycol, shouldn't that be closer to 50ppm rather than 3ppm? The formulation is expressed as percentages of the whole- not 2% of 6.25%.

Or am I just over-thinking it?


Stan
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Post by el Ducko » Thu Oct 24, 2013 02:28

The automotive antifreeze compound is ethylene glycol, NOT propylene glycol. There's a big difference!

There's an informative entry at Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol , parts of which are as follows:
in general, glycols are non-corrosive, have very low volatility and very low toxicity (however, ethylene glycol is toxic to humans and many animals)
Propylene glycol is considered generally recognized as safe (GRAS) by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, and it is used as an humectant (E1520), solvent, and preservative in food and for tobacco products, as well as being the major ingredient in the liquid used in electronic cigarettes. It is also used in pharmaceutical and personal care products.
The acute oral toxicity of propylene glycol is very low, and large quantities are required to cause perceptible health damage in humans; propylene glycol is metabolized in the human body into pyruvic acid (a normal part of the glucose-metabolism process, readily converted to energy), acetic acid (handled by ethanol-metabolism), lactic acid (a normal acid generally abundant during digestion), and propionaldehyde (a potentially hazardous substance).

Serious toxicity generally occurs only at plasma concentrations over 1 g/L [that would be 1,000 ppm in blood plasma, so how much sausage would you have to eat to reach that extreme a level? (Answer: way more than a person can eat.)] , which requires extremely high intake over a relatively short period of time. It would be nearly impossible to reach toxic levels by consuming foods or supplements, which contain at most 1 g/kg of PG. Cases of propylene glycol poisoning are usually related to either inappropriate intravenous administration or accidental ingestion of large quantities by children. The potential for long-term oral toxicity is also low. In one study, in 1972, 12 rats were provided with feed containing as much as 5% PG in feed over a period of 104 weeks and they showed no apparent ill effects; no data on offspring was offered. Because of its low chronic oral toxicity, propylene glycol was classified by the U. S. Food and Drug Administration as "generally recognized as safe" (GRAS) for use as a direct food additive.

Prolonged contact with propylene glycol is essentially non-irritating to the skin. Undiluted propylene glycol is minimally irritating to the eye, and can produce slight transient conjunctivitis (the eye recovers after the exposure is removed). Exposure to mists may cause eye irritation, as well as upper respiratory tract irritation. Inhalation of the propylene glycol vapors appears to present no significant hazard in ordinary applications. However, limited human experience indicates that inhalation of propylene glycol mists could be irritating to some individuals. It is therefore recommended that propylene glycol not be used in applications where inhalation exposure or human eye contact with the spray mists of these materials is likely, such as fogs for theatrical productions or antifreeze solutions for emergency eye wash stations.

Propylene glycol does not cause sensitization and it shows no evidence of being a carcinogen or of being genotoxic.
I retired from an engineering job in a plant that made polymer from, in part, propylene glycol. It's sure a whole lot less toxic than what we used to use while making polymer with ethylene glycol. ...so don't worry. (Be happy? :lol: )

...and please ignore all those "paint chip" accusations by CW. (The boy done had one too many Acme-brand anvils drapped on his haid.)
:mrgreen:
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Post by Chuckwagon » Thu Oct 24, 2013 03:58

...and please ignore all those "paint chip" accusations by CW. (The boy done had one too many Acme-brand anvils drapped on his haid.)
Oh you, you, you.... duck! Oooooo! You need to chill out! You know... like in a bath tub with a toaster! :razz:
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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Post by el Ducko » Thu Oct 24, 2013 05:02

Tell ya what- - how 'bout a few friends and I stop by for lemonade, and we discuss this real peaceful-like?
Image
(...Hey! ...got any grapes?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtN1YnoL46Q
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Post by Chuckwagon » Thu Oct 24, 2013 22:45

Yeeeeoooooowwwwwww! We're in a duck nightmare! :shock: A herd of quackers!
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably needs more time on the grill! :D
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